The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. And the first question, Neil McEvoy.

<p>The Green Budget Findings</p>

Neil McEvoy AC: 1. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the findings in the Institute for Fiscal Studies’ recent annual Green Budget? OAQ(5)0090(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the IFS green budget shows that the UK Government’s self-imposed austerity policy is not working, and that people in Wales face the immediate prospect of tax rises and spending cuts, with a longer term prospect of these failed policies extending into the next decade.

Neil McEvoy AC: Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. You are right, the green budget talks about tax rises or cuts that we face, and a very difficult future in Wales. But one thing we could do to help would be to stop money leaving Wales. I’ll give an example. In Cardiff West, the Earl of Plymouth is about to make roughly £1.4 billion from land sales that will destroy the countryside there. So, the question is: why don’t you legislate, so that Cardiff council, and other councils like it, can quickly reclassify land as agricultural land? The Welsh Government could then buy it—in this instance, for roughly £7 million. And, in this case, you could stop £1 billion leaving Wales, whilst securing the asset.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, there is nothing in the Institute for Fiscal Studies’ green budget that provides advice on that matter.

Julie Morgan AC: The IFS green budget report shows the wide variation of incapacity benefit claimant rates across the UK, with south Wales consistently conceding 8 per cent, along with other places like the north-east of England, and Merseyside, and the west of Scotland, whereas in much of the south of England, the claimant rate is below 4 per cent. So, does he agree that any changes of policies in this area that the Chancellor were to make would have a disproportionate effect on south Wales in particular and would need significant extra resources to deliver?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, Julie Morgan is absolutely right to point to the disproportionate impact on Wales of the UK Government’s welfare reform policies. And, as a Government, and, indeed, across many parts of this Assembly, we have consistently called on the UK Government to change its course in that regard. It’s sometimes said in a shorthand way, Llywydd, isn’t it—that Wales is older, sicker, and poorer than other parts of the United Kingdom? And all those three dimensions have a direct impact on those people who would wish to be able to claim benefits to help them with sickness and incapacity problems that are well beyond their own control.

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I’m grateful you’ve called me. It seems that the principal questioner has left the Chamber.

It has been noted.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I would ask the finance Secretary about the report that came out yesterday, in relation to the fiscal framework that has been brought forward by yourself, and the UK Government, that potentially has the ability to deliver an extra £600 million to the Welsh Government over the coming years. Do you recognise that figure, and the benefit that the fiscal framework will bring to the Welsh Government, in meeting some of the objectives that are contained within the IFS’s green budget? Because that is a significant figure that, ultimately, could meet some of those goals.

Mark Drakeford AC: I agree with Andrew R.T. Davies that you’ve got to take the fiscal framework alongside the IFS green budget, because the one does have some potential to mitigate the other. The £600 million figure in the report produced by the IFS and the Wales Governance Centre is within the range of £500 million to £1 billion that we set out in our estimate of what the fiscal framework would bring to Wales. It’s there, Llywydd, to be balanced against some of the risks that we are taking on as part of the fiscal framework. Nevertheless, our estimate is close to that of yesterday’s report, but shows that, even when those risks are taken into account, the fiscal framework will bring additional revenue to Wales, and we will want to put it to work to mitigate some of the cuts that the green budget demonstrates are coming our way.

Mike Hedges AC: Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure you’d agree with me that austerity never works. From President Hoover in the United States to Greece today, all austerity has done is make matters worse. We know that when the Institute for Fiscal Studies published its green budget, its director said that the next few years would be defined by the spending cuts announced by George Osborne. What effects will these proposed spending cuts have on the people of Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Let me begin by agreeing with what Mike Hedges said. The policy of austerity is a self-defeating policy. It makes things worse rather than better, and that’s demonstrated from the practical impact that we see elsewhere. On the direct impacts of the spending cuts set out in the IFS’s green budget, what we know is coming the way of Wales is a reduction in our revenue of 8 per cent between the years 2009 and 2019, and a cut of 21 per cent in our capital budget between 2009 and 2019, and this is without the cuts of £3.5 billion that the UK Government continues to say it will impose in budgets in 2019-20. I met the Chief Secretary to the Treasury yesterday, with finance Ministers from Scotland and Northern Ireland. Together, we pressed on the chief secretary the need for the UK Government to abandon its plans for those very damaging cuts and the impacts that they would have on devolved administrations right across the United Kingdom.

<p>The Cardiff Capital Region City Deal</p>

Hefin David AC: 2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on how the Cardiff Capital Region City Deal will benefit the northern Valleys? OAQ(5)0097(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: With governance arrangements agreed, now the Cardiff capital region city deal must move to identify, prioritise and agree projects, interactions and interventions that benefit the region as a whole, including the northern Valleys. I want to congratulate all 10 local authorities on ratification of the deal in a timely and effective fashion.

Hefin David AC: And, Llywydd, I should declare an interest as a member of Caerphilly County Borough Council. A few weeks ago, I voted in favour of Caerphilly County Borough Council accepting the city deal.

Member of the Senedd: Well done.

Hefin David AC: Thank you. Last week, I chaired a cross-party group on small and medium-sized enterprises, and the guest speaker was Professor Karel Williams from the University of Manchester. He raised the concept of the city region and made particular reference to Greater Manchester, and he said that while it works as a concept in many ways, Wales would do well to learn from some of the problems that they’ve encountered there. Chief among these was the fact that the economy of Manchester city centre is a lot stronger and more prosperous than the outlying satellite towns. I believe in the city deal, but I also believe we need to make sure it benefits the communities of the northern Valleys, and, for me, they are the towns and villages that aren’t signposted on the M4 or the A465. These areas have not benefited from public or private investment on the same scale seen on the M4 corridor and Heads of the Valleys, and, therefore, how will the Cardiff capital region deal ensure, going forward, that they do?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Hefin David for the question. I agree with him completely that there is a great deal to learn from work that goes on elsewhere. I was pleased myself to accept an invitation from Professor Karel Williams to give a lecture at the Manchester Business School recently, sharing the experience from Wales to match the experience that they are able to offer us. One of the ways in which I believe the Cardiff capital city deal will meet the question that the Member poses is that, along with our White Paper on local government reform, we propose to create a new statutory duty on such regional bodies to focus on best outcomes for the whole of the region. And that will mean taking a view of responsibilities that are not simply aligned with the particular part of that geography that any individual comes from, but to be focused on what matters for the region as a whole. I will certainly cover the parts of the Cardiff capital city deal that he has highlighted in his question, as he did in the short debate that Nick Ramsay brought to the floor of the Assembly on 1 February, when Hefin David focused on the Caerphilly business park and models there that can be used across the region as a whole.

Steffan Lewis AC: I thank the Member for Caerphilly for raising this important question. I was interested in the response of the Cabinet Secretary where he talked about the statutory duty. To what extent will that statutory duty impose provisions for equitable redistribution of wealth across the Cardiff capital region? Will there, for example, be an expectation of the capital region to create designated growth poles across the capital region so that in-built in that economic plan is a necessity to invest in the peripheral areas of the capital region, so that we can turn the Heads of the Valleys area, for example, into an arc of prosperity rather than a corridor of underinvestment?

Mark Drakeford AC: Those are very interesting points that the Member raises and they were reflected to an extent in the Greg Clark report on growth and competitiveness across the Cardiff capital region. In the end, Llywydd, it will be for the cabinet, which will now be formed as a result of a vote that’s been held in the 10 local authorities, to make decisions that benefit the region as a whole. They will bring forward projects for which there will now be a proper process to interrogate and agree those projects. The point I made in relation to the question from Hefin David was that we will bring forward proposals through the White Paper to legislate so that it is clear to people who are around that table that they must focus on the needs of the whole of the region when they are making those decisions, albeit that each one of them will represent one of the 10 component parts of that city region board.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: One of the opportunities identified by the Cardiff capital region is that it will enable people, particularly in disadvantaged areas, like the northern Valleys, to take advantage of existing education and training programmes and opportunities. What discussion has the Cabinet Secretary had with ministerial colleagues and local authorities in the Cardiff capital region about assisting young people with the travel costs associated with accessing education and training now that the Welsh Government has cancelled its bus discount scheme for young people?

Mark Drakeford AC: I discuss with Cabinet colleagues a whole range of such matters, both in my capacity as local government Secretary, but also in my capacity as finance Minister for the Welsh Government, and the Member can be assured that those matters are regularly kept under review.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, your White Paper on local government reform deviates considerably from the proposals outlined in the previous draft Bill by having 24 such proposal either omitted, and 13 amended. Some of these would have allowed reporting mechanisms that would enable the electorate to be far better informed, and also far more able to hold their elected members to account. Now, we very much support the proposals for council leaders to hold an annual public meeting and for elected councillors to produce an annual report, and yet you now consider these to be too rigid. The Local Government (Wales) Measure 2011, put in place by your Government, supported this guidance for such democratic accountability. Why are you now rejecting it?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the approach we have taken in the White Paper is to be clear on the objectives that we seek, and the objectives are ones that I share with what the Member said in introducing her question—that local politicians should be answerable and in a continuous relationship with their local populations. The draft Bill published in the last Assembly proposed a particular set of ways in which individuals would be able to demonstrate that, and what we have done is to move away from that in the White Paper to say that there are different ways in different places that you might be able to demonstrate that you are doing what we all agree you need to do. You have to be able to demonstrate it. But if you imagine that you are a good ward councillor and you are putting out three or four newsletters every year around your ward, what is the point of saying to you that, on top of that, you must publish an annual report? Because you are in contact with your population three or four times a year as it is. So, you have to demonstrate it. There is more than one way you can demonstrate it, and we think that giving that local flexibility will, in the end, provide more effective ways of securing that relationship than thinking always that we can set those things here in Cardiff.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The White Paper also proposes to build upon existing regional arrangements where they are in place. However, Estyn has criticised some educational consortia over governance and performance. For example, in June 2016, they criticised the north Wales education consortium for poor working standards, that the rate of improvement in many pupil outcomes had been the slowest out of four regions and that the consortium has been slow to ensure that the governance arrangements align with the Welsh Government’s national model for regional working. If you’ve got a model now with such heavy criticism and not seen to be working effectively, why would you wish to replicate this?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I do think the Member is very one-sided and selective in her view of education consortia, because there are very many successful things to their credit that they are able to demonstrate right across Wales. The regional way of working is one that is firmly endorsed in our White Paper. What we are able to do is meet the governance criticism that the Member has raised, because we say in our White Paper that having agreed regional arrangements, and having agreed the functions that will be discharged on the regional level, we will legislate to create a consistent approach to governance right across Wales. I think that will go a very considerable way to meeting some of the anxieties that have been expressed about some aspects of governance in some regional arrangements.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you again, Cabinet Secretary. Now, in response to a recent written Assembly question to me, you state that you have asked local authorities to highlight the ways in which they will consult, but the agreed outcome appears to be through their websites to encourage participation by citizens. However, this consultation is certainly going to bypass many of our constituents across Wales, and this has been borne out recently by the Labour Swansea council cabinet member for transformation and performance, when he said,While more of our council services and information are provided online these days, we understand that not everyone has access to the internet, particularly older people and those on low incomes, who often need our services the most.’Cabinet Secretary, these are the very people who I believe should be entitled to know that their model of local government is changing and that it is moving more towards a regional basis. How then do you convince this Chamber that this is deemed acceptable in terms of communicating with the people of Wales who have a right to know how their local services are going to be delivered?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I entirely agree with the point that the Member is making, in that we have a shared ambition to make sure that the proposals in the White Paper are drawn to the attention of as many people as possible across Wales and that we make particular efforts to reach those people who otherwise may not find these matters drawn to their attention. I definitely expect local authorities to play their part in that. The Welsh Government will play our part. If I might say to the Member, I think political parties have a responsibility in this as well. We are all in the business of local government and trying to persuade citizens to align themselves with our policy preferences, and I hope that all political parties here, as they prepare for May’s elections, will think that the future of local government and different ways of improving that future is something that we ourselves will want to make sure we draw attention to in our communications with the electorate.

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Minister, one of the traditional functions of local councils is in the field of housing. But sometimes excessive regulation can be a block, particularly for smaller house building companies, and some of these regulations relate to great crested newts. Now, the UK Government has brought out a White Paper in which they propose a newt-offsetting scheme. This would allow developers to build on sites containing newt ponds as long as they paid for good newt habitats to be provided elsewhere, so the newts, as a species, should continue to thrive. I wondered if you thought local councils in Wales might be able to better address the housing shortage if such a scheme were introduced here.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I’m not familiar with the scheme, although I’m sure that my colleague Carl Sargeant, who has responsibility for housing, was aware of it. We have a very ambitious target for affordable housing here in Wales. We’re looking at all sorts of ways in which we are able to accelerate the achievement of that target. The actions that are taken to sustain our wildlife and to threatened species are important as well. I’m sure that my colleague will want to look at the balance that is struck in that White Paper to see if there’s anything we would learn from it in Wales.

Gareth Bennett AC: Yes, thank you. We do need a balance, but I’m glad that you were mindful of considering it although I appreciate that the responsibility lies automatically with another Minister. But, thank you.Now, complying with regulations can be a recurring issue for councils. Obviously, we need regulations—sensible regulations, that is—but regulations do add cost. One recurring debate that we will probably be having here over the next couple of years will be which EU regulations we actually want to keep. There have been major issues over household waste collections in recent years. In Cardiff, the relevant cabinet minister, Bob Derbyshire, has frequently cited the needs to comply with EU regulations, but soon we will no longer have to comply with them. Given that, would now be a good time for councils to review their policies on waste collection?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, in general, Llywydd, I agree with the point that, with the UK leaving the European Union, all public authorities who will find themselves in a different position post Brexit need to begin to think about choices that they may have in that context. By and large, regulations are there to serve important political and public purposes. Where, however, there will be different opportunities in the future—in, for example, procurement, as far as the Welsh Government is concerned—it’s a sensible suggestion that local authorities as well should look at the changed circumstances they will find themselves in and begin to think now about how they will wish to make any accommodations.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Now, the last time I asked you questions with your local government brief, I was talking about traffic charges in Cardiff and you said you would write to me, which indeed you did. So, thank you for the information you provided. You stated that, in terms of parking and traffic violation charges that were collected by Cardiff council and other councils—Cardiff was the example I used; of course, it’s applicable throughout Wales—you stated that these fines would be ring-fenced to the particular department involved. So, I wondered how you, as a Government, enforce the ring-fencing of the fines.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, what I recall saying to the Member when he last raised this is that, as well as writing to him with some details, I would add this item to the agenda of matters that I discuss with local authorities when I’m in contact with them. I’ve been able to make a start on doing that. I do plan to use the next few months, while the White Paper is out for consultation, to use the opportunity to talk to local authorities about things other than local government reform. So, I look forward to being able to put on the agenda with local authorities the matter that the Member has raised with me previously, and to do that with a larger number of them over the weeks and months ahead.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sian Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Last week, in response to questions from Plaid Cymru on the location of the new Welsh Revenue Authority, the First Minister said this:we’re talking about jobs requiring specialist skills that aren’t available in Wales, in the main.’He went on to say:Most of the people will come from London’.Again, when the director of delivery for the authority was asked the same question at the Finance Committee the next day, namely whether the relevant expertise exists in Wales and whether the authority will recruit in Wales, the director said that the skills were available here and that the authority will recruit in Wales. Who, in your view, should we listen to, then? The First Minister or the specialist appointed to establish this body? If it’s the view of the specialist that is valid, is the First Minister guilty of misleading the Assembly? Certainly, he is guilty of undermining and denigrating Wales. Once again, Labour is saying that Wales is ‘too poor, too small, too stupid’, to quote the immortal Alex Salmond. That’s disgraceful and the First Minister should apologise.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I reject almost everything that the Member just said, Llywydd. There’s no contradiction between what the two sources that she quoted have said to you. There will be 40 people working in the Welsh Revenue Authority. A number of those will be recruited from Wales. A number of them will undoubtedly be recruited from beyond Wales. We are establishing a tax profession for Wales for the very first time. There will be skills needed for the Welsh Revenue Authority that are scarce and very particular. I met yesterday with the chair and chief executive of Revenue Scotland. I explored with them very specifically what they told me was the constant challenge of being able to recruit and retain scarce staff. They told me that they recruit for Revenue Scotland beyond Scotland, and, indeed, beyond the United Kingdom. They don’t have people simply within Scotland, when they too are establishing a profession for the first time. We will need people from in Wales, but we will undoubtedly need people who currently work outside Wales, and we will be very glad, on this side, to attract people who are willing to make their future part of our future here in Wales.

Siân Gwenllian AC: May I just remind you of what the First Minister said? He said:Most of the people will come from London’.I’ll move on to the White Paper published by you a few weeks ago on local government reform. There are a number of questions arising from that, mainly whether the kind of regional arrangements proposed create complexity and confusion for the people of Wales. One of the main problems in the public sector in Wales at the moment, according to the Williams commission report, is that it is too complex and therefore bars local authorities from engaging effectively. I would draw the Assembly’s attention to the framework and geographical model proposed in the paper, which is 2.6.10, which could mean that although some services will be presented at a regional level, other services will be provided by other partnerships at a sub-regional level, or even sub-regional partnerships would cross the regional boundaries. So, first of all, do you believe that this model simplifies the way in which local authorities provide services, or will the whole system be extremely confused and accountability will be lost?

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I say to the Member, of course, that I do acknowledge the fact that complexity is something that we need to consider when we plan for the future of local authorities? If ideas come forward when people are considering the White Paper about what we can do to simplify things and to make the system more accountable to local people in future, then I am open to hearing what people say. In principle, I don’t think that the things that are noted in our White Paper are going to do more to create more complexity than what was in the Plaid Cymru manifesto in the last election, when Plaid Cymru said:Byddwn yn deddfu i sefydlu... awdurdodau cyfunol rhanbarthol.Buasai’r un dadleuon yn ymhlyg yn y cynnig hwnnw, ac rwy’n awyddus i ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o fynd i’r afael â hwy a cheisio eu datrys, ac rwy’n siŵr y bydd y trafodaethau a fydd yn digwydd yn ystod y Papur Gwyn yn ein helpu i roi sylw i’r materion a nododd ac a rannaf gyda hi fel materion pwysig i’w datrys.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you. Plaid Cymru is arguing for a simple regionalisation and that’s what the combined authorities are. We’re also making the case for elected mayors as a way of ensuring accountability. Plaid Cymru does welcome the content of the White Paper in terms of committing to introduce proportional voting as a means of conducting local government elections. We would provide this through STV as a mandate for all councils and mandatory for all councils, but providing the option is a step in the right direction. The argument for introducing a proportional system is an argument that has received cross-party support within the Assembly and in Westminster too, with notable Members of your own party calling for a proportional system at a national level, too. So, do you agree that proposing a proportional system through STV for council elections and the principle in place for national elections too is a practical and valuable way of reviving democracy and ensuring that people do feel that their vote counts, safeguarding fair representation for all political views in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, voting systems are matters that have a variety of views within political parties, as well as between political parties. The proposal in the White Paper is to allow local authorities to make the decision that is right for them in their own context. I’m sure there will be a lively debate here in the Assembly about different views that individuals and parties will have about the best way of securing a voting system nationally in Wales that allows people to feel connected to the work of the National Assembly, and to feel that the way that they cast their vote has an influence on the way that decisions are made here.

<p>Business Rates Relief </p>

Andrew RT Davies AC: 3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on business rates relief in Wales? OAQ(5)0089(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for the question. The Welsh Government remains committed to supporting businesses in Wales, through our small business rates relief scheme, transitional relief and targeted high-street relief, to help them invest in and deliver long-term economic growth in Wales, while maintaining a sustainable funding stream for vital local services.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Yesterday, in First Minister’s questions—and I appreciate that you were away at a finance meeting yesterday, Cabinet Secretary, but hopefully your officials have made you aware—the First Minister did indicate that you would be bringing forward a statement at the end of this week, outlining how the additional £10 million that was announced in December was going to be distributed to businesses affected by the revaluation. Could I encourage you maybe to use this opportunity—the third question in finance questions—to inform Plenary of how you propose to do that, rather than wait until the end of the week, when Members will not have an opportunity to raise questions that they might think appropriate, given their constituents’ interest in this particular aspect?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I am doing my very best to make sure that there will be such a statement before we go into recess, and I am happy to confirm what the First Minister said yesterday. We are in the very final stages of putting all those proposals together. We are still waiting for some very last data from the valuation authority to allow us to do that. Of course, I understand that there will be many Members in the Chamber who will have a direct interest in the detail of it. I’m very happy to say that if any Member has a need for further information, or questions that they want to raise, I will do my best to respond to them individually as quickly as possible, once that statement has been made.

David Rees AC: Cabinet Secretary, on a day when we await the results of the Tata Steel ballot in relation to the steel industry and the future of that, it’s important that we clarify the position on business rates with steel. It has been often raised in this Chamber about the support the Welsh Government can give. Have you had further discussions with UK Government colleagues or EU officials in relation to what the Welsh Government can do to reduce the business rates? Because that is an important factor to ensure that we have a level playing field across Europe.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank David Rees for that. It’s a rare question, Llywydd, that points to a sector where rateable values have significantly reduced as a result of the Valuation Office Agency’s recent revaluation. Here in Wales, the fall in the bills that will be paid by the steel industry will have a material impact on that industry. Unlike in England, we will allow the industry to have the full benefit of those reductions because we don’t finance the help that we give to people whose bills are rising by taking money away from companies whose bills are falling. I know there’s been a lot of commentary in England calling for the steel industry in England to be treated as advantageously as the steel industry in Wales. So, I thank the Member for the question because it draws attention to a particularly important part of the way that we do this business here in Wales.

Bethan Sayed AC: Minister, traders in Neath market have, for some time, been offered reduced business rates, with some benefiting from paying none at all. However, recently, I spoke with some traders in the market who informed me that Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council have increased their rents to the point where some will be forced to close or move their business elsewhere. Would you agree that offering an economic incentive in terms of reduced business rates, and then undercutting that by increasing rents at the same time, undermines the actual point of the reduced business rates? And could you join with me in potentially writing to Neath Port Talbot council to raise these concerns? It is a very real issue at the moment, where many of the traders are saying that they simply cannot see a future at the market if things do not change.

Mark Drakeford AC: I am not aware of the issue, but I am very happy to agree to write to the council to discover more of the actions that they have taken.

<p>Public Expenditure</p>

Jeremy Miles AC: 4. What information does the Welsh Government hold on the amount of public expenditure spent in any defined geographic area within Wales? OAQ(5)0100(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government holds, or has access to, a wide range of data covering a variety of geographical footprints across Wales. Allocations to local authorities, local health bodies and police authorities represent nearly three quarters of all the Welsh Government’s revenue expenditure.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his reply. He highlighted in his earlier responses the damaging effects of Tory austerity policies. There will be increasing pressure on public finances in the years ahead, and the complexity of tackling the challenges will not get any easier. Would he agree that a clear and comprehensive picture of all public spending—local, Welsh and UK-wide Government, covering health, benefits, education and so on—at a local authority level or, dare I say it, a postcode level, would be a valuable objective towards which we should all be striving? And if he does agree, are there any current discussions ongoing, or does he envisage having those discussions in the future?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, there are a number of ways in which data are already available at that very local level. The Welsh infrastructure investment plan, for example, records expenditure at postcode level, the Welsh index of multiple deprivation has long operated at lower super-output area level, and analysis of the 2015-16 procurement expenditure in Wales, which is just drawing to a close, will also allow spend to be analysed at that postcode level. So, I share the Member’s interest in the topic for the reasons that he described. I’m sure he will recognise that there are some limitations to how you can use data in that way. There’s a difference between spend and impact, for example. If you build a secondary school, and run a secondary school, it will have a very big impact at a postcode level, but the impact of that spend, of course, is felt far wider than the postcode itself.I think the Member made an important point in his question, that we have over time moved on from an interest in inputs and outputs, to become much more interested in outcomes—what is the impact of the spend that we are able to provide on the lives of people who we hope will benefit from it? And collecting data is one thing; making sense of them and making use of them is another.

Dai Lloyd AC: In terms of capital spend, Cabinet Secretary, representatives from local authorities in England that have a border with Wales have mentioned that there is a lack of communication between the Welsh Government and public bodies in England in terms of the details of projects and infrastructure spend that is currently in the pipeline. Given that, what steps are you taking to ensure that more information is shared with public authorities over the border in order to deliver infrastructure projects that are interlinked?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I recognise and acknowledge the point that the Member makes. Of course, a lot of the things that we do in Wales on the border are dependent on what happens across the border as well, and the decisions that we make in Wales will have an impact on England and the things that they do in England, and the decisions that they make, can have an effect on us, and with regard to capital, that is very important to remember. We do share information when people ask us for the information, and when we collaborate with authorities over the border as well. I haven’t come across any examples that I can remember where there have been problems that have arisen, but if the Member has further details about where things can be improved, then I’m very happy to consider that.

David Melding AC: Can I welcome the move to a more sophisticated use of data, Cabinet Secretary? I think it’s very important, because it allows us, or gives us the chance, to get the maximum potential out of public spending. For instance, in areas where there is a high level of childcare provided from state sources, I would expect to see a lot of the local population engaged in delivering those childcare services, and if they’re not, it means, obviously, people are coming in from outside that area to deliver that service—a good thing in itself, but we’re not getting the best for the Welsh pound necessarily in the more deprived areas if public spending isn’t being thoroughly recycled in their economy.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, the Member makes the point, more eloquently than I did, that I was trying to make earlier, that we have to be interested in return on investment, not simply investment. Historically, I think you’d have to say that public authorities have been very good at collecting data and have put much less effort into the analysis of data. So, you get an awful lot of stuff on your table, but nobody to help you to make much sense of it. The point of making sense of it is to make sure that we get the return on the investment that we made, that works for the communities where the money is being spent, and the people who live in them.

<p>The Welsh Revenue Authority</p>

Nick Ramsay AC: 5. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on progress with developing the Welsh Revenue Authority? OAQ(5)0099(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Nick Ramsay for that. Good progress has been made in establishing the Welsh Revenue Authority. Tomorrow, the Finance Committee will conduct a pre-appointment hearing with the preferred candidate for the post of chair of that authority.

Nick Ramsay AC: I think there’s an echo in this Chamber today, Cabinet Secretary, but it’s an important subject, so I will emphasise. Monday, as you said, was another landmark day for Wales’s tax journey: the announcement of Kathryn Bishop as the Welsh Government’s preferred candidate to become the first chair of the WRA. As you know, the Finance Committee will be holding a pre-appointment session hearing tomorrow. When I attended one of the embryonic meetings of the WRA at the Millennium Stadium, I remember you saying, in your official statement, that the nature of the chair’s role would have to finalised before the appointment, i.e. whether it’s a transitional chair or a permanent chair, whether or not it’s a chair with experience of management and setting up bodies like this before or fiscal experience, and whether it’s a chair that’s going to take the lead public role or the chief executive. As we approach this appointment, can you shed a little light on what kind of chair we can expect Kathryn Bishop to be? She is going to be, I assume, in one of the most important roles—we will be discussing this tomorrow, as Simon Thomas said—one of the most important roles in Welsh public life. I think we do need to know the nature of the position that was decided on before the recruitment process started.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Nick Ramsay for that. I’m very anxious not to trespass on the territory of the Finance Committee, who I’m sure will want to explore just these issues with the particular candidate involved. If he’s asking me what I thought I was particularly looking for, then I felt it was really important to put some emphasis on attracting a candidate who would have a real enthusiasm for the work that needs to be done in establishing a new body. I think there are skills that people bring to a body that’s already in a steady state, and where your job is to make sure that it continues to run in an effective manner, and I think there might be slightly different set of experiences and enthusiasms for someone whose job it is to get a very important new Welsh institution up and established. When I was with Revenue Scotland yesterday, Llywydd, I met the chief executive and the chair of the authority, and they said to me, ‘Whatever plan you have at the start of the Welsh Revenue Authority, you have to face the fact that you will be changing that plan regularly during the first year because experience and anticipation will not be the same.’ You need somebody, therefore, who is sufficiently fleet of foot and attuned to that to make a success of the job. I hope that the candidate the Finance Committee will hear from tomorrow will meet that bill, and I look forward to seeing what the Finance Committee has to say as a result of its scrutiny.

John Griffiths AC: Cabinet Secretary, are you able to confirm that the running costs for the Welsh Revenue Authority remain within the estimates published last year?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I signed a letter earlier today to the Chair of the Finance Committee—one of a number of letters I’ve sent to the Chair today—in which I set out the latest position in relation to costs for the Welsh Revenue Authority. I make a commitment to provide a further update while the Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Bill is in front of the National Assembly, and in that letter I say that we remain confident that the set-up costs for the WRA will remain within the £4.8 million to £6.3 million set out in the regulatory impact assessment, and that we continue to expect the Welsh Revenue Authority to run in steady state somewhere between £2.8 million and £4 million annually.

<p>Big Data</p>

Lee Waters AC: 6. What plans are there to use big data to change the way public services are delivered? OAQ(5)0088(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: Harnessing advances in digital and data offers real opportunities to public services. The Welsh Government is investing in the capacity to make the most of these chances, for example, through investment in the Secure Anonymised Information Linkage databank in Swansea and by working with the Office for National Statistics as they develop their data science campus in Newport.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, Minister. Harrow Council have used big data to streamline rubbish collection and grass-cutting services, making £4 million of savings just through calculating the best routes to collect the bins and preventing overlap. Camden Council has reduced repair calls by 14 per cent by using big data to pinpoint where problems arise. When considering how the delivery of public services is redesigned, will you ensure that digital innovation is embedded so that we can be at the forefront of the big data revolution?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that. There are things we say on this topic in the White Paper on local government, and I very much share his focus on the way in which big-data analysis can make a difference to the most everyday aspects of what local authorities provide. I was hearing only earlier this week from a big-data analysis company of the way in which, in another part of the world, simply by capturing data from citizens, they had been able to make a radical difference to the way in which roads are cleared at times of snow. It is by getting under the bonnet of data of that sort that councils will be able to face a very difficult future by using their limited resources in that more directly effective way.

<p>The Proposed General Power of Competence </p>

Mike Hedges AC: 7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the proposed general power of competence for local authorities in Wales? OAQ(5)0086(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, there was widespread support for a general power of competence for local authorities in Wales when the previous Government consulted on the draft Local Government (Wales) Bill. It remains a key part of our plans for reform, as set out in the White Paper published on 31 January.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response? It’s been called for by local authorities for at least 30 years. Can the Cabinet Secretary explain how it will benefit local authorities, and confirm it does away with the need to prove surplus capacity in order to sell goods and services to the private sector?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the general power of competence is a power of the first resort. It allows local authorities to carry out things for the benefit of their local populations without needing to find the specific power that allows them to do that. It is a general power, of course, designed to give local authorities more freedom within the law, not freedom from the law.

And, finally, question 8—Caroline Jones.

<p>Fair Pay for Local Government Staff</p>

Caroline Jones AC: 8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on how the Welsh Government ensures fair pay for local government staff? OAQ(5)0093(FLG)

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for the question. The Government supports fair pay across the devolved public sector. While pay for local government staff remains a matter for democratically elected local authorities as employers, the Welsh Government supports them in that work through, for example, the workforce partnership council, the independent remuneration panel, and the Public Services Staff Commission.

Caroline Jones AC: Cabinet Secretary, I have been contacted by a number of constituents who have been affected by the pay review being conducted by local authorities. People who have been working in highly skilled roles for decades have suddenly found that their jobs have been reclassified as unskilled, and, as a result, my constituents have had their wages cut, sometimes by as much as 25 per cent. The fear amongst many local government employees is that they are being targeted in an effort to cut costs. Cabinet Secretary, how is it fair when high-ranking local government officers earn more than the Prime Minister, yet lower-paid local government employees are having their pay axed? What plans do you have to ensure that this doesn’t continue, and to rectify the constituents’ complaints that have come to me? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I would expect any actions by local authorities in reviewing jobs that staff carry out to be carried out in a way that is consistent with the advice provided by this Government and the agreements that those local authorities will have with their trade unions. One of the ways in which we will help to make sure that that happens in future is through the Trade Union (Wales) Bill that we are bringing in front of this National Assembly to make sure that the rights of trade unions are not eroded and that they are able to go on protecting their members in circumstances of the sort that the Member described. I look forward to the support of her party as that Bill makes its way through the National Assembly.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Counsel General

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The next item on our agenda is questions to the Counsel General, and the first question is from Hannah Blythyn.

<p>The Shrewsbury 24 Case</p>

Hannah Blythyn AC: 1. What discussions has the Counsel General had with other law officers regarding the case of the Shrewsbury 24? OAQ(5)0023(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: The Members will know that this answer is subject to the established law officers’ convention.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Counsel General. You’ll be familiar—but Members may not be familiar, from the conversations I’ve had this week—with the case of the Shrewsbury 24. The early 1970s saw the first and only national building workers strike, where workers were on strike for 15 days, and at a time when building workers were at the bottom of the pay scale and health and safety was non-existent, with building workers being killed on an all too regular basis.Following the strike, workers who took part in the flying pickets, including two constituents of mine, Arthur Murray and Terry Renshaw, were arrested and subsequently cleared at Mold Crown Court. They were then rearrested and sent for trial at Shrewsbury Crown Court, where the pickets were convicted on a number of charges and some of whom were sent to prison. Nearly 40 years later, there’s not been justice and many questions remain, such as: why were they cleared in Mold and then rearrested and trialled in Shrewsbury? Counsel General, whilst I recognise that criminal justice remains non-devolved, can I ask what consideration has been given to how this injustice has impacted on Welsh workers and whether you’ll meet with me to discuss this further?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, I thank you very much for the question. Of course, the campaign in respect of the Shrewsbury pickets is one of a number of miscarriage-of-justice campaigns from the 1970s and 1980s, amongst them Hillsborough and Orgreave. Of course, the common issue that arises in that campaign and others is the issue relating to the integrity of the judicial system and the alleged abuse of power.Of course, the common feature often in these cases is the actual use of conspiracy laws. That was certainly the case in Orgreave and was certainly the case in respect of the Shrewsbury 24. Members will also recall the issues with regard to the use of conspiracy laws regarding the campaigns against Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg in the 1970s and, indeed, 1980s relating to the campaign for the S4C channel.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Mick Antoniw AC: I can also tell Members, of course, that I remember very well meeting with one of those who was in prison, Dessie Warren, in the 1970s, in respect of campaigns around those very issues. So, I’m very familiar and very alert to the issues that they actually raise.Perhaps what I could do is ask the Member if she would perhaps write to me with her request for Welsh Government support and a meeting and I will ensure that such a request is carefully considered by the Welsh Government.

Gareth Bennett AC: I was interested by Hannah’s question and I had a look at the case, which I kind of had heard of from years ago. I think it used to be known as the Shrewsbury 2, rather than 24, but I gather it’s the same case. When I tried to put it into a political context, the conclusion I came to was that tougher trade union restrictions on issues like flying pickets weren’t introduced until later. So, as there were no tough regulations on picketing in 1972, it is possible that the Government did use rather arcane laws on conspiracy to prosecute some or perhaps all of the 24. So, there may be a possible injustice. Certainly, the files relating to the case should be put in the public domain. The only problem I wanted to flag up with you, Counsel General, was one of public funds, because although it is obviously a matter of concern to Hannah Blythyn because it relates to some of her constituents, which I perfectly acknowledge, we do have to recognise that legal fees can escalate in these sort of matters. So, I just hope that if the Welsh Government did get involved we could at some point have some estimate of the likely legal fees incurred to the Welsh taxpayer.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, I’ll just say to the Member that the issues of justice and the issues of the disclosure of files are not within the jurisdiction of Welsh Government. It is not a devolved matter. As I understand it, what the Member is raising is the issue of the impact of perceived miscarriages of justice, how they’re perceived within Wales, and the impact that has on the integrity of the judicial system.

<p>EU Laws in Wales </p>

Rhianon Passmore AC: 2. What discussions has the Counsel General had on the application of EU laws in Wales post Brexit? OAQ(5)0025(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: This question engages the law officers’ convention. But I can say that we are at every level working to ensure that powers to deal with EU legislation in devolved areas following withdrawal sit in Wales so that decisions about future policy in those areas are taken by Wales and in Wales’s best interests. This will involve a critical consideration of the UK Government’s great repeal Bill.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you for that. What is the Counsel General’s assessment, then, of the areas of legislative competence that will be most affected and what action is the Welsh Government taking in mitigation, post Brexit?

Mick Antoniw AC: The Member will understand that there are a lot of unknowns and uncertainties in the UK Government’s whole approach to this area. It’s clear that there are a significant number of areas in which the EU has legislated but which fall within devolved competence. Amongst those will be agriculture, fisheries, food standards, water resources, waste, pollution prevention and control, climate change, nature conservation, including the habitats directive, environmental assessment schemes, including environmental impact assessments, plant health, animal health, higher education, and public health. What I can say is that we are also exploring the possibility of legislating in the Assembly to make provision about how to deal with EU law in devolved areas following withdrawal, if the great repeal Bill proves to be inadequate. What I can say is there are considerable concerns about what the great repeal Bill might actually amount to, what it will actually consist of, and how it will affect Wales. There are serious concerns over the extent of engagement of the UK Government over that particular piece of legislation, so the situation is being monitored very, very closely, but clearly there are significant impacts on Welsh areas of responsibility and they are being given very careful consideration.

<p>EU Citizens</p>

Dawn Bowden AC: 3. What representations has the Counsel General made to the UK Government regarding the legal status of EU citizens in Wales? OAQ(5)0024(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: The Welsh Government has made its position very clear: we have called for the rights of EU migrants already living in Wales to be guaranteed immediately.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank you, Counsel General, for your response? Last week, in this Chamber, I made reference to a specific case of the uncertainty facing a family of German nationals settled in Wales over the lack of clarity from the UK Government over the position of EU nationals living in this country. As we know, it’s not just the personal impact that the uncertainty has on thousands of families across the UK, many of whom are in Wales; we also know the extent to which our public services and private industry rely on skills that EU nationals add to their workforces. So, does the General Counsel—the Counsel General, sorry—agree with me that it is unacceptable for EU nationals and their families to be treated in this way, effectively being used as bargaining chips by Theresa May in her negotiations over Brexit, and that she should live up to her claim that she wants to guarantee their right to stay in the UK as soon as possible and give this guarantee now, given that she has the powers to do so?

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I say to the Member, I fully understand the points that she makes, which very much reflect the comments that were made in the Welsh Government’s White Paper? For example, I understand there are in the region of 120,000 EU citizens in Wales. There are 1,360 academic staff, and there are many in our NHS and care sector. And I think back as to—and I’m sure we could all do the same—how these impact. My mother passed away a few years ago. If she were alive now, she would be exactly in that position, as a Danish national, and I would be sitting here answering this question with the view as to whether or not my mother would be allowed to remain in this country. There are many, many people who are in that position. What it calls for, it seems to me, from the UK Government, is courage, integrity, and actual leadership, because it cannot be right to use individuals and families as bargaining chips. And, sometimes, as far as the UK Government is concerned, it seems to me that it is just necessary for them to stand up and to do what is right. So, I fully agree with what the Member has said.

Simon Thomas AC: I agree entirely with what the Counsel General has just said. Many people living in my region, particularly in a town such as Aberystwyth, where there is a university and a hospital, are European citizens who have married people from Wales as well, and they are deeply concerned—and I emphasise that; they are deeply concerned—about the uncertainty for them and for their children, because they do have children in our schools in Ceredigion, too. In addition to making the stance clear on behalf of the Welsh Government, what else can you do on behalf of the Government to urge the Westminster Government not to use European citizens in this way? If we were to show good will at the beginning of the negotiations on Brexit by ensuring security for citizens of other nations, I would think that we would get a fairer hearing, ultimately, during those negotiations, too—bearing in mind, of course, that such citizens are also voters in Assembly elections.

Mick Antoniw AC: The Member is absolutely right. And, of course, many of those citizens have made the point that they may have lived in Wales, or in the United Kingdom, for 30 or 40 plus years, and that they may have voted in European elections, and yet they were excluded from participating in the referendum, and they do feel an injustice. There have been representations made with regard to the impact and the potential break-up of families that may occur, where one member may have to leave his wife and son.Now, it is all very well for a Government to say, ‘Oh, don’t worry, it will be all sorted out, as soon as we’ve sorted out our citizens over there’. But that means that we are, effectively, using them as a bargaining chip. To me, I regard that as wholly immoral and totally wrong. And it is a disgrace for the Government at the moment not to have the integrity to stand up for those citizens who have contributed so much to our communities and our society.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, isn’t what is immoral and totally wrong the scaremongering campaign, which is still going on eight months after the referendum campaign—the ‘remain’ camp’s project fear? As the Counsel General will know, the United Kingdom is a signatory of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, which refers to the acquired rights of citizens of the signatory countries, and which protects them in respect of the rights that they’ve built up before any treaty change takes place. And so, any subsequent treaty that is signed by that country cannot diminish or undermine those rights. This was accepted by the European Economic Community—as it then was—when Greenland left the community, and the commission referred to what were called then vested rights, which would be preserved following Greenland’s leaving what we now call the union. Therefore, any scaremongering on this issue is completely and utterly wrong, and actually it is extraordinary that we are still having this argument so many months after the referendum.

Mick Antoniw AC: I would agree with the Member that it is extraordinary that we are still having this debate so long after the referendum. It is perhaps extraordinary that the Member is also totally disagreeing with the member of his group who appeared on ‘Sharp End’, who actually said that she was of the view, and that UKIP’s position was, that they should be given immediate rights, and they should not be used as bargaining chips. I have to say of the Member’s approach that at least he is consistent in his ability to actually shock me with comments of inhumanity that do not surprise me in the least.

Vikki Howells AC: Counsel General, I know you will be aware of the case of my constituent of Austrian nationality who came to Aberdare in 1996 as a foreign language assistant, studied for a PGCE, became a teacher and set up her own business, but who, because she took the decision to stay at home to raise her children—of UK nationality—now finds she cannot qualify for permanent residency. Paradoxically, if my constituent’s husband was also Austrian, she could apply for permanent residency as a dependant. This is impacting upon my constituent, her husband and her children. What advice could you give to them?

Mick Antoniw AC: The advice I would give to them is to make all the representations they can through their representatives—whether it be the Assembly, whether it be Members of Parliament—and also to recognise the steps that the First Minister and the Welsh Government are taking to argue this case. I’d also refer specifically—. I think it is worth, perhaps, us reiterating the point in ‘Securing Wales’s Future’, in the White Paper, where it states very specifically thatWales has benefited from inward migration from the EU and many other parts of the world. We believe that migrants make a positive contribution to Wales’ economy and to society more widely. We regret and condemn the rise in xenophobia and racism exacerbated by the immoderate tone of debate in some parts of the political community.’

Thank—We stand in full solidarity with all our people, irrespective of their country of origin and believe that the UK Government should already have made clear that everyone legally resident in the UK will have their rights guaranteed after we leave the EU. We call upon the UK Government to make a clear declaration along these lines to provide reassurance to EU citizens living in Wales and elsewhere in the UK. We call upon the EU to make a similar declaration in respect of Welsh and UK citizens living throughout the EU. We reject completely any inference that the status of citizens with legitimate rights of residence should be used as “bargaining chips” in negotiations on the UK’s exit from the EU.’

Thank you. You shouldn’t take a long pause in between your sentences. I was about to cut you off in your prime, but I didn’t. There we go. Question 4, Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Who never uses a pause. [Laughter.]

<p>Maritime Laws</p>

Mike Hedges AC: 4. What representations has the Counsel General made on behalf of the Welsh Government regarding the enforcement of maritime laws? OAQ(5)0022(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: Members will know that I place great value on the protection of marine natural resources and you will be aware of the active prosecution work being undertaken by me on behalf of the Welsh Government.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Counsel General. What consideration has the Counsel General given to how prosecutions of maritime offences could be made more effective?

Mick Antoniw AC: There’s no doubt that we’re going to be in an environment, first, that is going to be more challenging, but it’s never been more important to actually be protecting not only our maritime and our environmental resources, but ensuring that Welsh laws in that respect are fully protected and implemented. I previously reported on the number of infringements that have led to successful prosecutions and that work will actually continue. I think it is important not only that we prosecute, but that we also respect the role and the work that’s carried out by our enforcement officers, who actually, day in, day out, often in difficult environments—maritime and on our coastland—are supporting the implementation of Welsh laws, which leads to the protection of our resources. I’ve met with those enforcement officers. I’ve discussed the issues relating to the evidence and the processes that they have to undertake to actually ensure that the outcomes of their investigations are successful, and I will continue to do so vigilantly. But I do want to put on record our thanks and recognition of the work that they actually do. That is not only important now, but will be increasingly important in the future.

<p>The Codification of Law Programme</p>

David Rees AC: 5. What progress has been made on the Welsh Government’s codification of law programme? OAQ(5)0028(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: Although early days, we have begun to scope potential consolidation projects, as well as starting work necessary to determine effective processes for codifying and better publishing the laws of Wales. And as part of this process we continue to work with the Law Commission on the planning consolidation and codification project.

David Rees AC: Thank you for that answer, Counsel General. I’m sure you and everyone else will recognise the importance of codification and the impact it will have. Could you actually outline the economic and social benefits that doing this job will actually give?

Mick Antoniw AC: There are very considerable benefits to the codification programme, and I don’t hesitate, as I’ve said in this Chamber, to identify the fact that it couldn’t come at a more difficult time—at a time when we have all the demands on resources, legal resources, around the issues of Brexit, issues around the great repeal Bill and all the demands that will be made there, and at a time when financial resources are very strictly limited. That having been said, it is very important, I think, to the business community, for example, that we have a codification of planning law, and of course, there is significant work that is already under way with the Law Commission in that respect. I think we will also need to look at our own procedures in respect of codification, and possibly legislation, because starting the codification route is not something you can dip in and out of. It has to be a consistent approach, because what we are doing is simplifying and codifying Welsh law, and Welsh law that will be growing and will undoubtedly be leading towards the issue of a jurisdiction. Of very considerable importance to me is not only the simplification and the advantages that will exist in respect of business for that particular purpose, but to look very closely at the issue of access to law, and that is that people have access to the law, that people can understand that law, and that, as far as possible, there is advice and representation available for people to actually take up their rights in law. These are areas that are very, very difficult. Some areas are not devolved areas, but this is a new road for us to go down as we create a new legislative framework. I have a number of meetings that are planned in respect of this process, and I look forward to reporting in much more detail on the progress that we are making as it arises.

Simon Thomas AC: I’m sure that you would agree, Counsel General, that there’s no point doing this work of improving and codifying in the way that you’ve outlined unless it is done in broad daylight and that there’s full access for the public and for the people who are affected by the law. So, are you currently confident that the work of putting Welsh law online is receiving the appropriate priority from the national archives?

Mick Antoniw AC: I think in the whole area of having the law available online and accessible in that way, there is still a considerable amount of work that needs to be done. Obviously, significant steps were undertaken by my predecessor to get the system up and running, but I think that starting the actual codification process itself creates additional demands and additional expectations. I think there is a responsibility on us as well to ensure that we maximise the benefit of technology in making the law available to individuals.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The issue of consolidation is something that took the attention of the predecessor Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. Codification has now taken our attention very much. Indeed, there are many advantages to Wales on the simplification and transparency of legislation, but it is quite a Sisyphean task in many ways. In fact, if you try to do it in one big chunk, it might be all-consuming, particularly as we have other major tasks ahead of us, including translating the outcomes of the Brexit transition, as we go forward. So, can I ask for the Counsel General’s thoughts on how we would approach this? He’s laid out previously, I think, the idea of piloting some area of this, but I would certainly say that it would seem desirable for a young democratic institution such as our own to lead the way in this, but to do it in a way that wouldn’t completely beggar us by throwing all the resource into this exercise of codification, whilst nothing else could be proceeded with.

Mick Antoniw AC: The Member is absolutely right that our process of codification and consolidation—the non-reforming consolidation that would go along with that—mustn’t interfere with the work that this Assembly carries out and the Government’s legislative programme and, indeed, the programmes of legislation that may arise from individual Members and so on. It must also not distract us from the really important task of ensuring that we are on top of any legislation and legislative issues relating to Brexit and the potential areas of legislation there that will be necessary. But, as I say, the longer you leave codification, the more complex and difficult it actually becomes, which is why I’m keen that, even if we do it in a limited way, we start the process going and we commit ourselves to an ongoing process. I’ve often described it as a bit like—I make mistakes with my analogies these days—but this one is a bit like the metro in that it will take 10 to 15 years to complete and I’m not sure that I’ll ever get to ride on it. But I’m sure the same will happen with codification: I may never get to see the end product, but I look forward to being on the journey.

<p>The Sewel Convention</p>

Jeremy Miles AC: 6. Will the Counsel General clarify the legal status of the Sewel Convention as it applies in Wales following the Supreme Court judgement on Article 50? OAQ(5)0027(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I first of all thank you for the question? Because there’s been quite a lot of misunderstanding and misrepresentation in terms of the outcome of the article 50 Supreme Court case. Just to make clear to this Chamber, as I have done in the past, but perhaps not as clearly as I should have done, the two key issues on which we went into the Supreme Court were actually upheld. One was in terms of the sovereignty of Parliament and if it were not for that, there would not be the debate that is taking place in the Commons and is taking place in the Lords and that will take place, subsequently, in respect of the great repeal Bill, in Parliament. The second one was the confirmation and recognition of Sewel as a parliamentary process that could not be circumvented by use of the prerogative. So, in those two key areas, which were the basis of our submissions, the court actually upheld the submissions that we made.Just to make clear as well: our submission at all times was that we do not believe that there was a veto. That was a submission that was also made by Scotland and that was also recognised by the Supreme Court. The important point now, however, is in regard to the Sewel convention. What the court did very strongly recognise—. I think a very important statement of intent from the Supreme Court was when they said, We do not underestimate the importance of constitutional conventions, some of which play a fundamental role in the operation of our constitution. The Sewel convention has an important role in facilitating harmonious relationships between the UK parliament and the devolved legislatures.’So, the Sewel convention is extremely important in the process that we are going through at the moment with regard to Brexit, with regard to the trigger Bill and with regard to the subsequent legislation that may actually arise. What’s important to recognise is that, with the Wales Act 2017, Sewel now has statutory status. That is, it is permanent. It is not judicable in the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court will not regulate matters like that, but it is now a permanent part, a permanent feature, of our constitution. Of course, it is recognised that, where political conventions like this exist—and I should point out that probably two thirds of our constitution is political convention; that is the way the UK constitution has developed—it has political consequences if it is not complied with. Members will be very well aware of the fragility of the UK constitution and the importance of the obligation of the UK Government to engage and seek consensus with the devolved Governments in the interest of the stability of the United Kingdom constitution and in the ability of the success of any subsequent legislation.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Counsel General, for that comprehensive answer. If I may just seek clarification, in the committee earlier this week, David Jones, the Minister of State at the Department for Exiting the European Union, posited the possibility the great repeal Bill itself might be a short Bill and there might be a number of individual Bills that follow from that. Given what the Counsel General has said about the difference between a legally binding justiciable convention and one which is potent but political, if you like, does he have a view as to whether the nature of the Act, be it a repeal Bill or one focused on European legislation, would be one which is likely to attract a different response from the UK Government from one which might be based on legislation around devolved competencies specifically?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, almost certainly what is going to follow the triggering of article 50 will be legislation, which will trigger the Sewel convention, and there will be issues of debate within this Chamber in the form of legislative consent memoranda and legislative consent motions. I think that is almost inevitable, subject to the type of legislation that is actually brought forward. As I’ve said, we don’t really know very much about what that is going to contain or precisely how it is going to be formed, and there are concerns about engagement. But what I do think is that the issue of Sewel, the compliance with Sewel and the status of Sewel do have to be monitored very, very carefully. It is a very important convention, as I say, that goes to the core of the relationship between the UK Government and devolved Government. In all conventions, the consequences of non-compliance with conventions that promote harmonious relations is that you end up with disharmonious relations and all the constitutional implications that that brings about.

Simon Thomas AC: Counsel General, as well as the great repeal Bill, which we’ve just addressed, one of the concessions made by the Government in taking forward the current Bill on triggering article 50 through the House of Commons was a further vote in the House of Commons on the final detail of any agreement that was made with the other European Union countries. In your view, would that also involve the Sewel convention and a vote in this Parliament?

Mick Antoniw AC: A motion in the House of Commons wouldn’t, but legislation would. It would depend—legislation, presumably in the form of the great repeal Bill, will precede a vote. The vote will be on a treaty, and it will probably be to endorse. But depending upon the nature of that and what implications that has in terms of legislation that is passed in Westminster, again, it would have issues with regard to the implementation of Sewel. I can say to the Member that I think there will be a need to actually look at how conventions such as Sewel are more formalised in, for example, parliamentary procedures and so on, but that is, perhaps, a debate for another time.

<p>Appointing a Welsh Judge to the Supreme Court</p>

John Griffiths AC: 7. What representations has the Counsel General made in respect of appointing a Welsh judge to the Supreme Court? OAQ(5)0026(CG)

Mick Antoniw AC: The Welsh Government has made representations on a number of occasions regarding appointing a Welsh member to the Supreme Court.

John Griffiths AC: Counsel General, it seems to me that the absence of representation from Wales on the Supreme Court panel is an important gap in the democratic framework within the UK. Do you agree that the body adjudicating on constitutional matters affecting the whole of the UK population should include representatives from the whole of the UK?

Mick Antoniw AC: The answer is that I certainly do agree. There has been argument in terms of what we mean by a Welsh judge or a Welsh representative on the Supreme Court and, of course, the issue is not just with regard to the Supreme Court, but also the lower level courts as well. There is an opportunity that arises in that, over the next two years, six Supreme Court justices will retire. Representations have been made by the First Minister and, in fact, the previous Counsel General about the lack of a Supreme Court justice with specific knowledge of Welsh law. And I also take the view that there should be a Supreme Court justice with specific knowledge of Welsh law. I’ve put it carefully like that, bearing in mind at the moment that we still have an England-and-Wales jurisdiction. The preferred option is that candidates should be required to have an understanding or the ability to acquire the understanding of the administration of justice in Wales, including legislation applicable to Wales and Welsh devolution arrangements. The selection and appointment processes, I think, are very aware of the representations that have been made from Wales, and I think we look forward optimistically to those representations being taken on board when the appointments are actually made. Can I also say that there is a broader issue that is not just in terms of representation from Wales on the Supreme Court; there is a broader issue of the diversity of representation? And on that particular point, I suppose I can only do my best by commenting that the President of the Supreme Court, Lord Neuberger, said: The higher echelons of the judiciary in the United Kingdom suffer from a marked lack of diversity and here I must admit the supreme court does not score at all well. We have one white woman and 10 white men, and, although two of the 11 were not privately educated, none of us come from disadvantaged backgrounds.’I think there is a recognition and I think we are in the process of reform and change not just in terms of our own jurisdiction, but also in terms of the way that the courts themselves are changing. But it is something that I and, I know, Welsh Government is monitoring closely.

Thank you very much, Counsel General.

3. 3. 90-second Statements

We move on to item 3, which is the 90-second statements, and Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I want to talk for 90 seconds about Men’s Sheds Cymru and the men’s shed movement. The original concept of men’s sheds was established in Australia 11 years ago as part of a health infrastructure that supports programmes to improve men’s health and well-being, and to assist in tackling social isolation.Now, we’re all familiar with the saying, ‘From little acorns grow mighty oaks’. Well, the Squirrel’s Nest in my constituency of Ogmore—Tondu to be more precise—is home to the first working men’s shed in Wales, and, since its inception in 2002, I’ve had the great pleasure—and I know other Assembly Members, some of whom are here today, have—of visiting them on a number of occasions. There are currently 34 men’s sheds in Wales, including Maesteg ShedQuarters. Whilst they tend to be self-governed, self-supporting and sustainable, and they have access via their official website to expert advice on writing a constitution, funding ideas, understanding health and safety and help with insurance, Robert, who is involved with the Squirrel’s Nest, is joint chair of the association of Men’s Sheds Cymru, and is in the process of setting up the Men’s Sheds Cymru co-operative as the main association in Wales, with the support of the Wales Co-operative Centre, enabling it to become a community benefit society and co-operative. It will be yet another first for Ogmore and for Wales, and Robert will be a founder director of the new association. No two sheds are the same; they’re as individual and diverse as the original back garden shed, a place where men can escape from the stresses of everyday life, to escape, too, to pursue their interests. Storytellers, crafters making music and amateur radio enthusiasts can all be accommodated but, crucially, it’s a place where isolation and loneliness are addressed in a friendly environment and where men can chat and enjoy each other’s company.

Thank you very much.

4. 4. Statement: The Big Picture, an Initial Look at Broadcasting in Wales

Item 4, then, is a statement by the Chair of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, ‘The Big Picture, an Initial Look at Broadcasting in Wales’, and I call on the Chair, Bethan Jenkins. Diolch. Ar 1 Chwefror, cyhoeddodd Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu ei adroddiad, sef ‘Y Darlun Mawr’, yn nodi ein safbwyntiau cychwynnol ar ddarlledu yng Nghymru. Ym mis Medi y llynedd, yn fy natganiad cyntaf i’r Cyfarfod Llawn fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor, dywedais y byddai’r pwyllgor yn ymroddedig i ddwyn darlledwyr a chyfryngau eraill i gyfrif. Byddai’n bwyllgor a fyddai’n sicrhau bod y cyhoedd yn cael eu gwasanaethu’n briodol gan ddarlledwyr, ac yn bwyllgor a fyddai’n sicrhau y byddai darlledwyr yn atebol yn gyhoeddus am eu cyfrifoldebau a’u hymrwymiadau i Gymru.Ers hynny, rydym wedi treulio amser yn ymgyfarwyddo â’r materion o bwys a’r cefndir. Rydym wedi cymryd tystiolaeth lafar gan y BBC, ITV, S4C ac Ofcom, a chan yr Arglwydd Tony Hall, cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol y BBC. Rydym hefyd wedi gwneud nifer o ymweliadau. Rydym wedi dweud yn glir ein bod yn bwriadu edrych ar bob agwedd o ddarlledu a’r cyfryngau yn ystod y Cynulliad hwn. Noder, er enghraifft, i ambell sylwebydd nodi nad oes llawer o ddefnydd digidol gennym wrth ddadansoddi’r cyfryngau yng Nghymru. Rydym yn fodlon ystyried hyn a materion eraill fel rhan o ymchwiliadau’r dyfodol. Rydym eisoes wedi dechrau ymchwiliad i gylch gwaith, cyllid ac atebolrwydd S4C, a fydd, gobeithio, yn ddylanwadol wrth i Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig gynnal adolygiad o’r sianel yn ddiweddarach eleni.We also intend to take a more detailed look at local media and local news journalism, at commercial radio, and at the portrayal of Wales on UK broadcast networks. ‘The Big Picture’ report sets out our take on the main themes that have arisen from our initial work in this area. As its title suggests, it is not intended to be a detailed analysis of every issue that is of concern, but a foundation for the more focused work we intend to do in the future. Nevertheless, it makes some important recommendations and raises a number of concerns. I will be happy to answer Members’ questions on any of the matters in the report, in the time available. I want to draw attention to a number of them—a number of the recommendations—that I think are particular important.Portrayal of Wales—BBC: first of all, and perhaps most important, the BBC director general has made a firm commitment that BBC Cymru Wales will receive extra funding for English language broadcasting in Wales. So far, Lord Hall has not put a figure on how much that extra funding should be. We have. We’ve recommended that an additional £30 million should be provided annually for English language drama and broadcasting about Wales. This is not a new recommendation. The previous Assembly’s Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee and the Institute of Welsh Affairs’ media policy group have previously made similar recommendations. Funding of this amount could allow a doubling of the output and allow BBC Wales the chance to produce more quality programmes that earn a place on the BBC network. Lord Hall will appear before the committee in March, and we expect him at that time to announce significant extra funding for English language broadcasting in Wales, and we will use the £30 million figure as a benchmark against which to judge how serious he is.Portrayal of Wales—ITV: if Wales is to be adequately represented on broadcast networks, we cannot expect the BBC to take sole responsibility. Other public service broadcasters also need to step up to the plate, particularly ITV Cymru Wales. It would be unfair not to recognise their recent, albeit limited, success in securing network commissions. But the fact is that the approach taken by ITV Cymru Wales, and by ITV generally, has not led to Welsh voices being adequately represented on the ITV network. The channel’s approach to commissioning has failed to capture the richness of Welsh communities, and there are considerable aspects of Welsh life that are not portrayed either on the ITV network or on ITV Cymru Wales. We have recommended that ITV Studios adopts a more proactive approach to developing programmes for broadcast on the ITV network, including setting specific goals for developing network output for Wales that reflects life in Wales. While I would not necessarily expect all committee recommendations to be accepted without comment by those they affect, I, and other members of the committee, were intrigued by ITV’s very defensive public response to this particular recommendation, not only in their corporate response, but in their press analysis, also. For all that it has to take account of commercial realities, the fact remains that ITV Wales is a public service broadcaster with a responsibility to properly reflect the community it serves. So, I am glad to hear that ITV have said that they do intend to continue to engage constructively with the important work of the committee, but I have to say that I did not find their response to this recommendation particularly constructive.Cyllid S4C: rydym yn poeni’n arw am effaith ddifrifol y toriadau parhaus i gyllideb S4C. Torrwyd y gyllideb o 36 y cant mewn termau real ers 2010. Bydd yn dioddef rhagor o doriadau termau real o tua 10 y cant yn y cyfnod yn arwain at 2021, er gwaethaf ‘elfen o sefydlogrwydd’ oherwydd i gyllid ffi’r drwydded aros yn gyson. Mae hyn wedi cael effaith sylweddol ar yr hyn y mae S4C yn gallu gwneud. Er enghraifft, mae 57 y cant o raglenni bellach yn ailddarllediadau o’i gymharu â dim ond 20 y cant pan lansiwyd y sianel. Mae hyn yn amlwg yn llawer rhy uchel ac yn destun pryder sylweddol iawn i ni fel pwyllgor.Soniais yn gynharach fod y pwyllgor eisoes wedi dechrau ymchwiliad i gylch gwaith, cyllid ac atebolrwydd S4C, er mwyn cyfrannu at adolygiad Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig o’r sianel yn ddiweddarach eleni. Bydd angen inni ystyried dyfodol S4C yn y man, yn dilyn adroddiad Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig, ac nid cyn hynny. Byddai unrhyw doriadau i gyllideb S4C cyn yr adolygiad yn annerbyniol yn ein tyb ni. Craffu ar ddemocratiaeth leol—cynigion y BBC: yn fuan ar ôl i’n hadroddiad gael ei gyhoeddi, cyhoeddodd y BBC gynlluniau i helpu i wella’r gwaith o graffu ar ddemocratiaeth leol yn y Deyrnas Unedig drwy wreiddio newyddiadurwyr mewn sefydliadau cyfryngol lleol. Bydd hyn yn golygu 11 o newyddiadurwyr lleol newydd—un i bob dau awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru. Mae unrhyw gam a gymerir i wella’r gwaith o graffu ar ddemocratiaeth leol yn amlwg i’w groesawu. Fodd bynnag, roedd y pwyllgor yn pryderu mai un o ganlyniadau anfwriadol y dull hwn fyddai lleihau ymhellach nifer y gohebwyr mewn ystafelloedd newyddion ledled Cymru.Mae gwir angen inni weld rhagor o fanylion am y cynnig hwn, er mwyn penderfynu a yw wedi mynd i’r afael â’r pryderon a fynegwyd gennym. Yn lle hynny, fe wnaethom ni argymell math o wasanaeth mwy penodol y gellid ei ddarparu i sefydliadau cyfryngau lleol ar faterion lle mae newyddiaduraeth leol wedi dirywio, fel yn y llysoedd a’r cynghorau—gwasanaeth ‘wire’.Our report covered a wide range of other matters, such as a news opt-out for Wales on BBC network radio, scrutiny of the appointment of the new BBC board member for Wales, the prominence of S4C on the electronic programme guide, the accountability of broadcasters to the National Assembly and how Channel 4 can improve its portrayal. I hope to be able to take questions from those in the Chamber today, and of course, we are awaiting the response from the Government and we hope to be able to table a debate in the future on this particular area of interest, considering that we have a committee dedicated to looking at communications here in Wales, and want to keep the focus strongly on what broadcasters and the industry are doing here in Wales.

Dai Lloyd AC: May I congratulate Bethan Jenkins, first of all, on her robust chairing of the committee and a clear leadership on a way forward? I recall, because I’m an old man now, in previous Assemblies, trying to get to grips with this whole issue of discussing broadcasting and the press and so on and their portrayal of Wales generally, and it was very difficult to get a debate of any kind at one point, because it was a non-devolved issue. So, I congratulate Bethan, who has succeeded to push the boat out, so to speak, and enabled us to have a broad-ranging debate. We’ve had the BBC, ITV and S4C before the committee, and we have published this wonderful report—the first here in Wales in its field. The background to all of this is the poor portrayal of Wales, generally speaking, both within Wales and from Wales to the rest of the UK. Therefore, my first question is: do we as a committee intend to regularly scrutinise the activities of BBC and ITV? We know that Tony Hall will return to the committee, but should we anticipate some comprehensive programme, which would mean that the BBC, ITV and S4C would appear regularly before our committee in the first place? Also, the other question is on the future of S4C. There is now a review ongoing in other places, of course, but specifically, as some of us are eager to ultimately see the devolution of funding and powers over S4C to this place in their entirety, what work is going to take place as part of any inquiry into the workings of S4C—that aspiration within Wales and among the people of Wales to see S4C devolved to this Assembly? Thank you.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you, Dai, for those very kind words. I didn’t pay Dai Lloyd to say those things, I can assure you. We have been scrutinising ITV, the BBC and others on a regular basis, as part of this inquiry, but as a committee that has ‘communication’ in its title, I think it’s important for us to set the political agenda to ensure that those in the media field are accountable to us and that they feel under pressure that this committee is going to have an opinion on what they do, and that we’re going to be vigilant of what they do. I certainly know that those in the sector are watching what we’re doing as a committee, and that they’re taking what we do seriously. I don’t think that ITV Cymru Wales would’ve responded so strongly if they didn’t take us seriously as a committee. So, I think that’s important. In terms of the BBC, there’s a memorandum of understanding between the Assembly and the BBC, and so there is a requirement that there is a consistent relationship between us and them, so that they can continue in the future. So, I would certainly want them to come in again to give us evidence.With regard to S4C and devolution, well, as part of the inquiry, you’ll know, Dai Lloyd, that S4C is going to include a question with regard to that inquiry and whether we should look at the devolution of S4C specifically in that context. We haven’t yet gone so far as to discuss devolution in its wider context, but even though we don’t have the powers over devolution here in Wales, it’s important for us to show that we are a nation and that we can lead this agenda, whether we have the powers in this place or not at present.

Neil Hamilton AC: Can I congratulate my Chairman on her statement and, indeed, more widely on the high seriousness, humour and feather-light touch of chairmanship that she brings to us all? A very model Chairman of a committee, if I may say. I realise that giving compliments in the Chamber in the presence of her party leader may lead to some internal problems in Plaid Cymru for her. I certainly hope not. But my compliment is very genuinely meant.I just want to refer to what the report says about S4C. In particular, in paragraph 37, we refer to the fact that the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport in the UK Government has a statutory duty to ensure that S4C has sufficient funding to fulfil its remit as a public service broadcaster. In view of the cuts that were referred to in the statement and what the report also says about the way in which S4C has had to cut back on its programming, in particular, investment in children’s programmes and a lack of original drama for several months a year, I wonder whether, in fact, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport is in breach of statutory duty in this case. I certainly agree with the report saying that it would be quite wrong for any further cuts to S4C’s budget to occur whilst the future is under review. S4C is a very lean organisation. They’ve cut their staffing from 220 to less than 130; their internal overheads are only around 4 per cent compared with an average of about 11 per cent or 12 per cent in the public sector. So, I think S4C, actually, is a very, very considerable success story on very meagre resources. So, the question that I have for the Chairman is whether we have an even stronger case in law than in morality to demand greater funding for S4C, given the importance that this must play in achieving the Government’s objective of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050 and our ultimate aspiration of having a wholly bilingual nation.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you very much. Again, I didn’t pay anybody for the compliments, but thank you very much anyway. I’m sure my leader won’t be able to give me a row for something you’ve said. That would be a new thing for me, but, hey, wonders will never cease. What can I say?With regard to S4C, I mean, you know, we would agree on these benches, of course, that the cuts to S4C should never have happened, and I think that’s probably a cross-party consensus by now. It is our one channel, and others are even arguing now that we should be having more than that one channel. I know that S4C has produced a YouTube channel for young people to see how that would potentially engage with them, taking away potential branding or changing the branding so as to appeal to a new audience. We have to really promote S4C, because I go into schools on a regular basis and those who are studying Welsh through English language-medium schools, and many people, don’t even know about S4C, or have ever watched S4C. That’s actually quite distressing, when I know people have fought so hard to create the channel here in Wales for us to consume and for us to converse about and to encourage people to watch programming through the medium of Welsh.I’m not a lawyer—shock horror—so if it is in breach of statutory duty I’m sure as a committee we can seek legal advice. When we’re having the inquiry on S4C we can seek legal advice on that because it’s a point that I think we should be looking at, because, of course, it’s not just a moral obligation, it’s how they are looking to deliver their legal requirements within the current statutory framework. So, I think that’s a point we need to be looking at. It may be interesting for other people in the Chamber to know that S4C are already going above their statutory and legal requirements because they’re working in digital, and because they’re working in other fields. There is no obligation for them to be doing that, but they are because, obviously, they want to see the channel progress and they want to be working in different ways in the future. With regards to the 1 million Welsh speakers, well, yes, we’re doing an inquiry on that at the moment and we need to look at the educational front because that’s where we’re hearing the change needs to happen fastest, but we cannot ignore the importance of S4C in being able to realise those targets, and the educational facility that S4C can offer in that regard. For example, I know that there’re actors and scriptwriters in Wales waiting to be able to go into schools and to tell them about the shows that are on S4C, wanting to promote the channel, and if they have role models going into schools and speaking Welsh to them from those particular television shows then that will, potentially, inspire young people and others to watch the channel in the future.What we have to ensure as part of our inquiry is to make sure that the UK Government know that any cuts are not acceptable. I mean, I wouldn’t want to see any cuts after the review, but especially before the review we should not tolerate any cuts by the DCMS. I think they have improved somewhat towards their relationship with S4C in regard to this agenda—probably learning from previous mistakes in how they’ve made cuts to S4C—but there’s so much yet to do and I hope that as a committee we can work together to make that a reality.

Thank you very much. There are no more speakers in this statement.

5. 5. Debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee's Report on Its Post-legislative Scrutiny Work on the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015

We’ll move on to item 5, which is the debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee’s report on its post-legislative scrutiny work on the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. I call on the Chair of the committee—John Griffiths.

Motion NDM6239 John GriffithsTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:Notes the report of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee on the Post legislative inquiry into the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence Act (Wales) 2015, which was laid in the Table Office on 12 December 2016.

Motion moved.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to be opening the first Plenary debate on the report of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee. The Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act is a landmark piece of legislation that sets out a statutory framework to prevent abuse and improve support for survivors. But passing legislation isn’t enough—it has to be effectively implemented. So, our committee decided to undertake post-legislative scrutiny to look at how well this was happening with regard to this legislation. During our inquiry, we received written and oral evidence and conducted visits to hear directly from survivors. We’re grateful to all for contributing, but in particular, we want to say ‘thank you’ to those survivors who inspired us with their strength and courage in sharing their stories. For them, and for all survivors, we must get this right. We cannot turn the clock back to stop violence once it has happened. No-one should doubt the Cabinet Secretary’s commitment to address this issue head on. We welcome that all of the recommendations have been accepted, either in full or partially. However, the response to our recommendations is sometimes relatively weak and sometimes provides too little detail. Hopefully, in his response today, the Cabinet Secretary will provide reassurances that the issues we raise in our report are being addressed with the level of urgency required.Dirprwy Lywydd, the committee shares stakeholders’ concerns about the pace and consistency of implementation. Five years have passed since the White Paper was published, and nearly two years since the Act was passed, but many key components are not in place and are not going to be in place very soon. With every day that passes we risk losing momentum and opportunities to change lives. Services are being cut, organisations are unsure about their future. We are losing time when we could be putting in place preventative measures.I will now turn to some of our recommendations. Our first recommendation called on the Welsh Government to set out, in the forthcoming delivery plan, dates for a range of items, including statutory guidance. In the first line of the response, the Government said that there was no outstanding statutory guidance. However, elsewhere, the response states that there will be consultation on statutory commissioning guidance in July of this year. So, it would seem that there are outstanding pieces of statutory guidance. Could the Cabinet Secretary clarify that position: what remains outstanding and when will they be published? These pieces of statutory guidance are important. They are the building blocks of the legislation.In recommendation 3, we called for Welsh Government to prioritise the publication of statutory guidance on commissioning of services. The national adviser told us that the commissioning guidance was critical to the purpose of the Act, yet the draft guidance will not be consulted on until July. In their response, the Government cite the toolkit that was launched by the Lloyds Bank Foundation and Welsh Women’s Aid in August 2016, but this was produced independently from Welsh Government and is not statutory. In a sector where commissioning is so vital to the effective delivery of services, it is frustrating that this guidance is not yet ready.Closely linked to the issue of commissioning services is that of funding. In recommendation 5, we called for a timetable by which the advisory board will complete its work into a sustainable funding model for the specialist sector. We were told that this is a priority for Welsh Government, and we welcome this commitment. The response states that progress will be reported to the Cabinet Secretary at the advisory group in July, but the committee would like the timetable called for so that we know when this work will be completed. We also called for sufficient funding to cope with any increased demand for services. We welcomed the increase in the revenue component of the domestic abuse services grant, but would appreciate clarity from the Cabinet Secretary as to whether the £400,000 increase will meet the likely increase in demand, given that funding is static for 2017-18.In recommendation 8, we called for clarity, as a matter of urgency, into the legal status of the forthcoming delivery plan, when it will be published and how it will be consulted on. The Government accepted this recommendation, but doesn’t provide much information on this. We are told that the legal status will be considered by the task and finish group that has been established by the advisory board to develop the plan. We are also told that the task and finish group will determine the publication date when they first meet in February 2017—this month. I would ask the Cabinet Secretary, if he is not able to clarify the legal status and outline when it will be published today, to clarify when these decisions will be made.I would now like to move on to our findings around education. This has proved to be a controversial issue. The White Paper stated that education on healthy relationships should be mandatory in all schools, but this wasn’t included in the Bill. This issue continued to concern stakeholders such as Barnardo’s, Welsh Women’s Aid, Gwent Police and the national adviser, who wanted greater commitment on this matter. We know that the Cabinet Secretary is sympathetic to these views, as he told us that he agreed that early intervention and education is key to building healthy relationships, and that he was keen to ensure consistency. The committee still feels strongly that there must be requirements for schools to teach children about healthy relationships, or the entrenched and harmful social attitudes about abuse and sexual violence will not be prevented. There is an opportunity with the development of the new curriculum to get this right. This is overdue and would be an important stride forward. It would be good to have further reassurances from the Cabinet Secretary on this crucial matter.Recommendation 11 calls for the Welsh Government to prepare specific regulations relating to the publication of information by local authorities on how they are exercising their functions in relation to the Act. It remains unclear as to whether the Cabinet Secretary will commit to require local authorities to begin reporting by the start of the 2017-18 academic year. Again, clarity today will be welcome. Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to move on to the role of the national adviser. This is a critical role, but we heard that its effectiveness is potentially hampered by limited resources. It is a part-time post with one part-time member of staff to support. We recommended that the Welsh Government should review the adviser’s capacity and consider allocating further resources. Their response states that it has been discussed and considered, and they have agreed to keep it under review. I would appreciate further clarity from Welsh Government on the nature of these discussions and what sort of review is being done. We know that budgets are tight, but it may be that a small increase in resources could have a significant impact on service delivery. Our final recommendation calls on the Welsh Government to make reference to the national adviser, her responsibilities and annual work plan in the delivery plan and any future national or local strategies. The Welsh Government stated that the task and finish group are responsible for developing the national framework, and that they will make them aware of this recommendation. We would ask that the Welsh Government takes a more proactive role in this, and that they provide a steer to the task and finish group.In closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to make clear that I know the Cabinet Secretary is committed to addressing these issues, but the committee is concerned that there appears to be a lack of urgency within Welsh Government to take the necessary steps on implementation, as outlined in the Act itself. Given the importance of this legislation, commitment must now be matched by timely and effective action.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you to the committee Chair for setting out the committee’s concerns in a very clear manner. You will have noted that there are many concerns raised by the committee. I’m going to focus on two aspects of the equality committee’s report and the Welsh Government’s response to that report: I want to look at the delivery plan and the role of education.In recommendation 8, our committee called for clarity on the legal status of the delivery plan, and for dates for the publication of that plan. This was because we are determined that the delivery plan must be one that is legally enforceable or its value, without that, is severely reduced. Without a publication date, there could be inconsistency as local strategies are developed and as local services are commissioned. In responding to the committee, the Welsh Government accepts the recommendations, but then contradicts itself, in a way, saying that the legal status and timetable for publication will be considered by the task and finish group, which met for the first time this month. Now, that doesn’t sound like an issue that has been given urgent attention. Once again, we see the Welsh Government far too slow in delivering in this area. There’s no mention of our concerns about the timetables, the inconsistencies, or whether the plan can be implemented and delivered once those services have been commissioned.I’m also concerned about the development of healthy relationship education in our schools. This is a preventative measure that is crucial in order to ensure that our young people grow up confident in how to deal with situations of abuse and to identify abuse in the very first place. The original White Paper for the legislation included healthy relationship education on a mandatory basis, and there is very robust evidence for delivering this as part of the curriculum. I accept that it may be part of the curriculum for the future, as the Cabinet Secretary for Education has mentioned, but what about the here and now? What about next September? We know that very young students do suffer gender inequality and stereotyping in school, which can have an effect on the quality of their education and their relationships with fellow pupils and students. Identifying unhealthy relationships is crucial. There’s been some debate in this place on this issue and, ultimately, the Government included new duties for local authorities, namely that they would have to report on how they were dealing with the issue in education.But, our committee heard that there was no timetable for delivering this duty. So, we made a recommendation that the Welsh Government should implement regulations in terms of the publication of information by local authorities on the purposes of the Act. Our recommendation was that local authorities should start to introduce their reports and that the Welsh Government should ask them to do that at the beginning of the 2017-18 academic year, which is next September. Unfortunately, the response is utterly inadequate. What the Government say is that there may be an opportunity to gather data about what’s happening in terms of healthy relationships in our schools, which is a long way from what the committee recommended. That’s to say, in some specific schools, it may be possible to look at what’s happening through the medium of the work that Women’s Aid and others are carrying out in those schools, but that will be very limited indeed—it’ll be patchy rather than providing the consistency that we need.There is a broader point here. The committee report notes serious problems with delivery and the pace of delivery. Indeed, sluggishness is the adjective that comes to mind in terms of that delivery, and, once again, we do need to move with pace before people start to see that this is an Act that, in reality, doesn’t have teeth in terms of implementation and making the real difference that we need to see.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I’m pleased also to speak in this debate in relation to what I believe has been some very in-depth scrutiny work on the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. Of course, I was present last term, on the same committee, when the Bill was going through, and the key thing that we’ve found since taking evidence, and indeed during the scrutiny of the Bill, was a lack of uniformity across Wales in terms of implementation now of the Act. Data collection agencies were complaining about duplication. Agencies and third sector groups were stating about data being collected and then everyone is very precious with those data, and data are only of any use if they’re shared and then, you know, sort of used to deliver the outcomes we’re all looking for.The good practice guide—the guide—commissioned by the Welsh Government and prepared by Welsh Women’s Aid, was published in October 2015 and is described on the Welsh Government’s website as a handy tool to help integrate these issues and approaches into existing teaching and management practices.’Whilst it does not form part of the statutory guidance made under the Act, it was noted by Welsh Women’s Aid, quote:we are yet to see a clear plan as to how and when schools and other education establishments will be implementing this guidance, and there is little current evidence of this being implemented consistently across Welsh schools and other educational settings.’Additionally, another concern was raised that the national adviser actually stated that she does not know how the guide is being used, how it is being distributed, or even monitored. And she doesn’t even know how many schools are using it. So, you know, there’s some ambiguity around that. She also noted she was unsure what resources have been considered locally, regionally, or nationally, to support and enable the schools to drive forward this cultural change. These are the quotes; I’m not saying, you know—.Further, whilst I understand the deadline is May 2018, I was disappointed to note that, in response to a recent FOI, only one local authority to date has published their updated strategy, aimed at ending violence against women, gender-based violence, domestic abuse, and sexual violence, and this actually is in line with the Act.In relation to data collection, the national adviser stated that she feared that, without clear direction from the Welsh Government as to the expectation for implementation and mechanisms for data collection and monitoring, there is a real risk that the commitments made by the former Minister will fail to deliver change within our educational settings. On this, the report notes that many stakeholders were concerned that the national adviser’s role was part time, with stakeholders advising the role would be more effective if it was full time and that there was a staff team working collaboratively to ensure that they gather data to inform the strategy on an ongoing basis, other than relying on focus groups.Now, whilst I am pleased that the Welsh Government has agreed to review the capacity of the national adviser’s role, I’m disappointed that they did not mention data collection in their response to this report, because it was very much an important factor. So, I would call on the Cabinet Secretary to seek to undertake regular and effective data monitoring and collection, as part of a forward commitment to require local authorities to begin reporting by the start of the 2017-18 academic year. Any Act is only as good as how well it’s interpreted and implemented. And I think there’s lots more that needs to be undertaken in that regard.We would also ask that they further consider the calls of the committee’s report to consider allocating additional resources for research and to support the development of local strategies. I would also ask that the—oh, sorry. Finally, we’ve called on the Welsh Government to clarify what sanctions are available to Welsh Ministers if the requirements of the Act are not fulfilled by public authorities. Whilst I welcome that this recommendation has been accepted, I rather hoped that this would lead to some clarity on this matter for our local authorities, our health boards, but the Cabinet Secretary’s response doesn’t make clear what substantiates a good reason not to follow the reason. And I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could outline this further. Thanks for the committee for the work, and thanks to all the witnesses coming forward to give evidence. Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: I too welcome the report, and I do welcome the response from Welsh Government. It does indeed demonstrate their commitment to addressing the recommendations made by the committee. I’m going to focus solely on recommendation 6, and that concerns funding for independent domestic violence advisors, or IDVAs, and multi-agency risk assessment conferences, otherwise called MARACs.IDVAs often offer a lifeline for victims and their children by helping to secure the safety of those who are at high risk of injury or homicide by partners, ex-partners, or family members. And the support they offer is invaluable, as I’m sure you will all agree. Refuge, and many other organisations, have said that work with them has been shown to substantially reduce the risk facing victims of domestic abuse. We all know that, on average, a woman will have experienced 35 assaults before they first call the police. And I will remind the Assembly that, in January of this year, at least 11 women from the UK have been killed by men, or where a man is the principal suspect, according to Counting Dead Women. Eleven women in just one month alone—that is one in every 2.8 days, or one in less than three days. And that is, I think, a stark reminder of why—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Will the Member take an intervention?

Joyce Watson AC: Just a second. Of why support to victims of domestic abuse must be a priority.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you for taking this intervention. You were on the same committee when the Bill was coming forward, and now we have an Act. Why is that message not getting across, and how can the Welsh Government, and we as Assembly Members, work better to ensure that we can bring those numbers down?

Joyce Watson AC: That has been, Janet, a lifelong ambition of mine, and I think everybody everywhere can join in that. And that is what we do. But, anyway, going back to the report, in Wales, the percentage of required IDVAs to support victims at high risk of abuse is 73 per cent, and, although this does compare well to many areas in England, like the Midlands, whose percentage is a very poor 40 per cent, there is obviously room for improvement. I understand, as the Government’s response to the recommendation points out, that IDVAs and MARACs are often jointly funded from a number of agencies and organisations, and that that funding actually varies across different local authorities and also different regions. I know that, in 2014, Dyfed-Powys Police force had to make significant improvements in this particular area, following a recommendation from a Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary inspection, and that they have done that. So, my question in all of this is: since IDVAs and MARACs play a critical part in saving lives, and only intervene at the medium to high-risk level, what conversations and discussions, Cabinet Secretary, have you had, both with the Home Office, in terms of maintaining their funding and their commitment to saving those lives, but also with the four police and crime commissioners, who set their plans, and to make sure that, within their plans, there is a clear commitment to supporting the capacity of IDVAs and MARACs within their respective areas?

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks to the committee Chair for bringing today’s debate. This was a well-intentioned Act. However, the post-legislative scrutiny work has highlighted serious problems in implementing it, which we’ve been hearing about this afternoon. One of the problems is that local councils, in large part, have to implement the Act, but it comes hard on the heels of other Acts that they also have to implement, such as the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. A major issue that arose during the post-legislative scrutiny was that councils often struggle to find the staff to allocate these extra tasks to, and they’re also struggling to find adequate financial resources. So, it does cause problems.During the scrutiny, we heard from some very able council officers who were certainly passionate about reducing violence against women, but who told us that their councils struggled with time, with staffing levels, and with money, so it will still be a big job to effectively implement this Act. I welcome the committee’s desire to introduce healthy relationships teaching at schools, but, again, this raises issues of time and expense on already time-pressured curriculums. Also, we should be mindful of a point that has been made in the Chamber recently, which is that domestic violence can affect men as victims, as well as women, albeit in lesser numbers, and I think this aspect could also usefully form part of healthy relationship lessons at school.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I listened carefully to what other people have said and perhaps want to deviate slightly from what some other people have said. I particularly welcome the acceptance of recommendation 4, which is about aligning training packages, because it’s absolutely essential that we’re not overburdening public servants with too many different instructions. And so it’s really important that the needs assessments and outcome frameworks are embedded with the social services and well-being Act, as well as the well-being of future generations Act. So, I think that’s going to be reassuring to practitioners that the training element is going to be taken forward coherently, and that also there’s going to be guidance on the development of joint local strategies, because I think it’s very important that they’re done in bite-sized chunks. But the most important thing that we must take from this is that it’s really, really important that anybody who’s having to cope with people who are experiencing domestic violence, sexual violence, are all singing from the same hymn sheet and all are understanding their particular role in both either preventing it or in ensuring that people get the support that they are entitled to.I want to relate the rest of my contribution to focus on recommendations 9 and 10 in relation to female genital mutilation. I understand why the Government has only partially accepted recommendation 9 on mandatory education, because I fully understand that there’s no point in making something mandatory if you don’t have the ability to monitor it. I note the agreement not to put any additional burden on schools to obtain additional information from what we already ask them to do. So, I think I take heart from recommendation 10, which is to ensure that the pioneer schools are incorporating the best practice guidance in the way that we’re delivering the new curriculum and that Estyn is going to be inspecting schools on the basis of whatever is in this new curriculum. That’s absolutely essential to me. So, I don’t think this is a rejection of recommendation 9; I think it’s a deferment in line with the pace of travel.In relation to FGM, it’s absolutely essential that schools appreciate the potential risks that their girls are under, because it’s probably only going to be the schools, or perhaps youth services, after-school services, that are going to be able to spot when a girl is at risk, because, unfortunately, this is mainly a practice that’s conducted by the family members of the girls. Therefore, there have to be other people who are available to safeguard that child. The data are hard to come by, but I think we know that more than 2,000 women in Wales are living with fully or partially removed genitals, according to Dr Mwenya Chimba, who co-chairs the Wales FGM Forum, and about 1,200 of them live in Cardiff. But, nevertheless, if you think this is not a particular problem in your constituency, I refer you to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, because there are 30 million girls at risk before their fifteenth birthday across the world, so we all have a role to play in stamping out this horrendous practice.But going back to girls and schools and the role that schools have to play in this country, we absolutely have to ensure that schools can read the runes when a girl is likely to be at risk so that they can take the action required to ensure that the court will safeguard that child before it’s too late, because there is no reversal of FGM—it is a lifelong and deeply scarring event.Happily, the courts are prepared to take action on this and there is now much more effective action to prevent girls going abroad. But, unfortunately, this has led to a new revival of FGM taking place in this country. We stamped it out in Harley Street, but I was horrified to learn from the London Assembly Member, Jenette Arnold, who was here on FGM Combating Day on 6 February, that this was occurring in the suburbs of London, using either retired or practicing midwives. These are people who’ve been trained in the NHS. So, we have to ensure that everybody understands the Hippocratic oath and that FGM is something we have to all fight against.We absolutely need to ensure that girls have the space to be able to disclose the possibility of that risk, and that means that we have to have whole-school training on this to ensure that we’re not simply targeting one ethnic group or another. So, it’s got to be a whole-school event and I want to ensure that this is fully embedded in Donaldson, because that is the only way that we are going to be able to combat this practice amongst girls—as well as, obviously, important work that we need to do in the communities affected.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I would like to place on record my appreciation to the Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, John Griffiths, for his adept chairing of our committee. It has been interesting in my short time there. Our short inquiry in the autumn last year was an important piece of work to review the progress of the groundbreaking, landmark Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. I also wish to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his role in driving this and his determination to make it succeed. As our committee’s report states, this Act is internationally recognised as a groundbreaking piece of legislation. The value that the National Assembly for Wales’s scrutiny committees play can be seen by our short but important inquiry. To aid better implementation and to help the Welsh Government improve its approach to the national and local strategies, delivery plans and educational provision, we can act as a critical friend who can offer advice and recommendations. It is testimony to this work that none of the 15 recommendations were rejected. Twelve of the recommendations were accepted in full; three of the recommendations in part. As somebody who has served in local government for over a decade, I particularly welcome recommendation 1 being accepted. We heard evidence from, amongst others, Flintshire County Council and Wrexham borough Council, who expressed their wish for further meaningful communication and clear direction from Welsh Government. I’m heartened to see the Welsh Government state that guidance will be published in relation to local strategies in July 2017. This will ensure that section 6 of the Act is fulfilled as required. When we pass laws in this place, we pass them to make a beneficial difference to the lives of Welsh people. To ensure this, it is imperative that local government and relevant agencies are in synergy with Welsh Government, with nothing lost in translation. Cabinet Secretary, how do you think we can aid the partnership of local authorities and Welsh Government to ensure better outcomes? Recommendation 10 of our committee sought that the Welsh Government should ensure that all schools, as has been mentioned by others today, should use the good practice guide developed by Welsh Women’s Aid and put in place monitoring arrangements on the effectiveness of this guide. As members of the committee, we received extensive and largely consensual evidence around the importance, again, of teaching children and young people, as Jenny Rathbone and Joyce Watson have said, about healthy relationships. It was our belief that compulsory education is key to preventing violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in the first place. The Welsh Government has accepted this and states it will be addressed going forward by Estyn’s thematic review of existing healthy relationship provision that is taking place during the 2016-17 academic year, and this will cover a selection of schools. I was grateful to the individuals and organisations who came to the Senedd, as others have stated, to give evidence on this vital matter. We must continue to work together to ensure our good intentions, cross-party, are carried into the realities of Welsh life. Gwent Police, the police force in my constituency, submitted written evidence that stated thatvery limited numbers of staff have had any training through the National Training Framework’,and although I’m assured that this will be addressed in a timely manner, it sends a note of real caution to us all that passing laws is not a job done. We must ensure that the transformative impact of legislation is felt in our Welsh communities and across our Welsh schools, further education institutions and higher education institutions. The statute book is not the end of the journey of creating effective law. Diolch.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank the committee Chair, John Griffiths, for bringing forward this report, and the committee for the work that they’ve done on delivering it? As Rhianon Passmore said, I think we should probably remind ourselves at the outset that this Act was a groundbreaking piece of legislation, moving into new territory where no other legislature in the UK had gone. It was therefore always likely that there would be early experiences that would highlight where improvements could be made, and this report, I think, offers recommendations to enable the Government to do that.Although others have also touched on the education recommendations, that is the area that I want to focus on. I also would like to talk specifically about abuse perpetrated through coercive behaviour, which often gets less attention that physical abuse, but is no less damaging. It invariably takes place over an extended period of time and represents a continual pattern of behaviour where one partner is controlling and delivering an almost permanent sense of fear. Victims are told what to do, who they can see, what they can spend, what they should eat and how they should dress. In fact, the abuser takes control of every aspect of the victim’s life, stripping them of all confidence, making them feel worthless and making them believe that they could not function without the abuser ruling their life. Sometimes, the impact on victims may not be as immediately evident, particularly as there are no physical scars, but, without doubt, over a period of time, the impact on victims will be as devastating as any other form of abuse.So, it’s important that young people are educated at the earliest opportunity on issues around violence against women, domestic abuse, sexual violence and coercive behaviour. I’m therefore pleased that the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report contains a number of recommendations around education and that the Welsh Government’s Live Fear Free website focuses on the role of our education system in teaching young people about healthy relationships, something that has been referred to by a number of Members today.So, I note particularly the Welsh Government’s response to partially accept recommendation 9 of the report, which calls for a commitment to including teaching about healthy relationships in the new curriculum. This partial acceptance may be because the design of the curriculum is still being developed, to be available from 2018. But, from my part, I would strongly support this recommendation. Indeed, I was very pleased to recently present awards to certain young people from Merthyr schools and youth organisations who were working on projects around healthy relationships. Today, I learned, from a visit from Pen y Dre school in Merthyr—they came to the Assembly this morning—that they are going to be continuing to deliver this. The vital role that such awareness-raising education plays in preventing abuse in future shouldn’t be underestimated.Recommendation 11, on the publication of information by local authorities on how they are implementing the Act, again appears to only be partially accepted in the context of the curriculum review. I would hope, however, that recognition of the importance of including healthy relationships education in the new curriculum will carry with it a recognition of the need to monitor the delivery and effectiveness of such education.Can I finally say that I welcome the Welsh Government’s acceptance of recommendation 13, which extends the education of our young on healthy relationships to those studying in HE and FE? In conclusion, Deputy Presiding Officer, I think we should be rightly proud of this groundbreaking legislation that we have here in Wales and recognise the importance of educating our young people about all forms of abuse, including those that are not always readily recognised as such. Addressing this with young people at an early age could be the long-term solution to dealing with behaviours that lead to violent and coercive abuse in relationships.

Thank you very much. Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, for giving me the opportunity to speak in this debate on such an important subject. I’m not on this committee, but I’d like to thank the committee for looking at the very important Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, because I think, as so many people have said, it was groundbreaking legislation and I really welcomed it, as did the whole Assembly, and I hope we can really do it justice in the implementation here in Wales, because obviously the key now is how do we implement it.I also would like to thank the committee for doing this post-legislative scrutiny fairly early on so that we can see now where the hitches are and where we need to make some changes. I’d like to thank the committee for doing that, because I know people have expressed some concern about the pace and the consistency of implementation. I think that there are still some practical improvements that need to be made. I, along with many others, want to particularly mention recommendation 9 of the committee’s report in relation to teaching about healthy relationships in our schools. That was the one area that wasn’t really concluded in the Act and it was left for the review and for the Donaldson review to take this into account and see how it would be implemented. I do think there is a degree of confusion in people’s minds about exactly what is happening about how this is going to be developed in schools. So, I’d be grateful if the Minister were able to clear this up when he does reply.I wholeheartedly agree with most other people who have spoken that it’s absolutely key that we tackle attitudes to healthy relationships early on in a child’s education, because it’s vital that we do give young people positive information and advice in this area. Because, if we don’t, where are they going to see the role models? Who’s going to inform their views? I think we do know how much information is freely available on the internet and on social media that is negative information and can lead to negative attitudes and the formation of unhealthy attitudes. In particular, I think the issue of ideas about relationships and consent is something that is really important—that that is discussed in school. And the sooner we try to provide this on healthy relationships, the better. I know that it is happening, but it is happening in a very patchy way, and I do not understand whether it is actually compulsory for it to happen or not, and I feel very strongly that it should be compulsory—that it is absolutely vital that we do have this as a compulsory element in the school curriculum. My understanding of it is that it is currently covered in key stage 2 as part of personal and social education, which includes lessons on healthy relationships and domestic violence, but that schools do not have to deliver the entire programme, although it’s considered good practice to do so. Then, sex and relationships education in more depth is covered in science in key stage 3, which many experts say is actually too late and too focused on the biological. Because we do want to look at general attitudes—the attitudes that young men have towards young women, and to try to encourage healthy relationships. I know that the Donaldson review, ‘Successful Futures’, recommended that health and well-being be one of the six areas of learning, and this includes SRE. And, again, I think SRE is the key to preventing violence against women. I think we’ve talked a lot about it being as early as possible; we must get in so that we get rid of the stereotypes that do arise, and we do know what happens with some attitudes within schools. I would also like to make the point that, when we do get age-appropriate, good-quality SRE in schools throughout Wales, it must also be LGBT inclusive.I know that children themselves are calling for help in navigating these choppy waters. I had a meeting with a youth forum in Cardiff, and top of their list was healthy relationships. That’s what they wanted to have in schools. And I’ve done some work recently with the campaigner for girls’ rights, Nikki Giant, who I think I’ve mentioned in the Chamber before for the work she’s done surveying teenage girls on body image, sexual bullying and harassment. In her manifesto for girls’ rights, she states that one in three girls and young women are likely to be the victim of violence and domestic abuse and calls for young healthy relationship advocates to be recruited, trained and appointed in schools across Wales, in line with the Act. So, in conclusion, I think the Act is a huge step forward, and I think we are all very proud of it, but I do think that the key thing that will take it further and will start trying to help form young people’s attitudes at an early age is to ensure that we get that education in the schools and that we do make it compulsory.

Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I welcome the report following the post-legislative inquiry into the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. I’d like to thank John Griffiths and the committee, and the wide range of stakeholders and survivors who gave evidence and played a critical role in forming the report. I’d also place on record a thank you to this Assembly, because they’ve been very supportive of the introduction of this Act and, indeed, there are many Members in this Assembly who have played a pivotal role in its development. Llywydd, I accept or partially accept all 16 recommendations. The report recognises the challenges faced in implementing this new legislation, but also the progress that has been made to date. And I listened carefully to the contribution of many Members who are right to raise the issues of the pace of introduction. I also am frustrated with that process too, but I can give you my assurance that I have made some significant changes to my team and I’ve looked at the implementation and how we seek to deliver on these strategies and the guidance, and I will update the Chamber as soon as I’ve got some more detail that I can share with you. The report reflects a point in time, 18 months on from the Act coming into force, and it will help inform further implementation and the delivery of the delivery framework. Since the Act was passed, we’ve appointed the first national adviser, published the national training framework and piloted ‘ask and act’. I’ve listened to the observations made by Members with regard to the advice from the national adviser in terms of her workload, and I have introduced a secondee into the department to help with the national adviser and also to restructure the department.We’ve published guidance for schools and colleges, consulted with survivors, published the report ‘Are you listening and am I being heard?’, and also published a national strategy under the Act to refresh the ministerial advisory group. I intend the ministerial advisory group to be a very supportive element of the information I require. Experts are one thing, and they’re great and we need experts, but I also need experience: people who have experienced the system that they are going through. Survivors of domestic violence are critical in making sure that I make the right decisions and we are able to implement the Act. I’ve told my team I expect that to be reflected in the advisory panel. In terms of some of the questions that Members raised with me today: on the local strategies, guidance will be issued to local authorities and local health boards to assist with their local strategies in July of this year. With regard to commissioning guidance, the commissioning guidance we plan to publish under the Act will seek to ensure that no matter where a victim lives there are strong and specialist services ready to help, and we intend to consult on statutory commissioning guidance by July of 2017 also. I hope that is helpful to the Chair in his winding up. There were many observations with regard to specific issues. I think Gareth alluded to the delivery and the information that was received at committee about sometimes no staff in place, no funding nor any methods to do that. I will not accept that process. We have to make sure this happens and I will be very robust with organisations that tell you that that is the case but don’t tell me. I will make sure my adviser follows that work up. The work with police and crime commissioners and the UK Government is something that we are working very closely on. Joyce Watson, again, a champion of this cause—. I’m pleased that the PCCs and chief constables across the whole of Wales have made tackling this issue one of their key priorities in their work plan. That’s something I’m grateful for. We often have political spats between different parties and different Governments. Can I say that I fully support Liz Truss in conducting an emergency review of the way perpetrators of domestic abuse directly cross-examine their victims in family courts. I’ve written to Liz Truss to tell her that and I hope and wish her well in that process, too.I said earlier on, the advisory group will be giving me advice on commissioning guidance and sustainable funding. These are critical parts of the process. For far too many years, not just in domestic violence services, but third sector organisations also have often been concerned about the way funding is given on an annual basis. We have to come to terms with what services are required, who delivers them well and how are we going to fund them? The two elements of the task group, I’ve asked for further advice on—. When I’ve got to a conclusion on that I will again write to the committee informing them of that. One of the strong messages that has come through from this committee report and, indeed, from the debate today is around education and the issue of early intervention and prevention. Our whole ethos around ACEs and tackling the issue around intervention is something that this Government is absolutely keen on. I’ve had many discussions with the education Secretary and other colleagues in the Cabinet and we are looking very closely at what the education needs are. I have always said I think it’s right that we should have curriculum-based activity around healthy relationships. I’m trying to ensure that my colleagues are able to do that but I would urge caution if we expect the education system to deliver everything. Actually, there is a responsibility on all of us in our family home life, in parenting and in schools—each and every one of us can play a part, but only a part. I hope that our conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for Education continue to be fruitful. Can I pick up on Dawn Bowden’s point? She was very right to bring to the forefront how people are affected by domestic violence or the whole point of this. There are two elements to this: dealing with the victim of domestic violence, whether that be directly or indirectly, whether it’s a family member or otherwise—. But we should also not forget the issue of the perpetrator, and that’s a very important part of this. Finding funding to balance the issue between victim relationships and focusing on perpetrators, where often a perpetrator will move from victim to victim to victim, and we know that—. We have to make sure we break that cycle, and that’s why we have to think about what the needs of the victim are, but also what the needs of the perpetrator are, because we’ve got to break that cycle. Some perpetrators we know have been victims of domestic abuse or family dysfunction in their early years as well, and that’s why the focus is on the ACEs—domestic violence is one of those ACEs—we have to get underneath that, making sure that we can break the cycle in the longer term. The resilience of individuals is different; everybody is different. Some people could cope with that, but some others can’t, and we have to make sure we get into the space and support them in that quest. I must say that some of the most dangerous perpetrators I believe are narcissistic sociopaths, and I think the danger is that we probably all know them. It is incumbent on us all that we are able to identify them, and where we identify them, we should do something about that. The particular characteristics of these people are something that may surprise some people and may not surprise others: a driven quest for power—a narcissistic sociopath does not care about anything other than himself; it’s a destructive power control over people; behaviours that seek love and admiration; to be sure, this isn’t needy love—it’s not even about emotional love—it’s about power, the tools to manipulate and dominate. And I’m sure many of you will be able to recognise that in people. There are no apologies, no guilt and no remorse under circumstances. They believe that they are a gift to the world who make it richer and more colourful, therefore they’re more calculating. Even cruel actions are justified. Well, if you’re married to a financial or professional successful narcissist, it doesn’t always mean that they’ll engage in physical abuse, but it does happen sometimes. What it does mean it might ruin their reputation and destroy what they’ve accomplished. Again, it probably doesn’t need to either. They manage to accomplish what they want quite successfully through words and deeds. So, because they know who you are and the person you’re striving to become and how to push your buttons—in other words, they know what you value, what you like about yourself, so they devastate you. Those are the very things they pounce on. Colleagues, it’s incumbent that we recognise this wherever we are, and we make sure this doesn’t happen in our community. Finally, the point of the report is to focus people’s minds—it certainly focused Government’s minds. I welcome the report, even where there are critical elements to it. But I do think that what we need to do is refocus our collective responsibility on making sure that we can deliver on this groundbreaking piece of legislation. Diolch yn fawr i chi.

Thank you very much, and I call on the Chair of the committee to reply to the debate—John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Can I begin by thanking Members for their contributions today, because I think the number of contributors is testament to the strong feeling in this Assembly that we need to effectively prevent domestic abuse, sexual violence and violence against women, and redouble and renew our efforts to make sure that this legislation is effective? There have been quite a number of common themes, and I think the strongest one has been around education and healthy relationships, and understandably so if we’re talking about prevention, obviously; we need to make sure that in the earliest years and throughout school and beyond, our young people are receiving the right messages and developing the right attitudes. So, on the points made around a mandatory approach, however it’s shaped and however it’s carried forward, we must be confident that our schools will consistently and effectively teach healthy relationships to our pupils. Obviously, Donaldson is absolutely key as far as schools are concerned, and we also have measures in this legislation for further and higher education. This was recognised in the contributions today. We must make sure that we get it right as far as education is concerned, so I was very pleased to hear the Cabinet Secretary recognise that and, indeed, refer to discussions with colleagues to ensure that we do have that consistent approach required of our education system. Obviously the committee, and I’m sure all Members here and stakeholders outside, will be following developments very carefully and closely as far as that’s concerned.There are also general themes, Dirprwy Lywydd, around the pace of the implementation, the effectiveness of implementation, and many examples given in terms of recommendations from the committee and the responses from Government as to how that needs to be looked at again and taken forward in as timely and effective a way as possible. Again, I was very pleased to hear the Cabinet Secretary recognise those concerns in the committee’s report and in the debate today, and, again, undertake to refocus Welsh Government’s energies and work to ensure that those concerns are properly understood and acted upon. Again, I’m sure everybody here, the committee and stakeholders outside, will follow developments very closely as far as that’s concerned. Some of the more specific points raised, Dirprwy Lywydd, I think, were very interesting for us. There are aspects around training, underlining training, which came across very strongly in the evidence that we took, so that the requirements of this legislation should logically and obviously, really, be aligned with the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, to ensure that those local authorities and others required to implement this legislation can do so in a cost-effective way by aligning their training efforts around those different pieces of legislation. Because they do complement each other, they do require many things in common, and so that’s, I think, quite a commonsense approach to take. I think Dawn Bowden was absolutely right, and it was referred to by the Cabinet Secretary, in terms of coercive abuse and controlling attitudes, and how significant that is in a general picture of abuse. So, we do need to make sure that, coming back to healthy relationships education, it is mindful of that particular aspect of abuse, and it does make sure that the healthy attitudes that are developed through education avoid those potential pitfalls. It is a wide-ranging scene when we look at the abuse that occurs; it’s not always what people would most readily and obviously think of, and we have to ensure that healthy relationships education captures all aspects of abuse.The good practice guide is obviously very useful in terms of schools, and we do need to ensure, as Rhianon Passmore said, that there is a consistent approach taken to that. Also, I think, we should recognise the strength of what Jenny Rathbone said around female genital mutilation, the work going on in pioneer schools, and Donaldson, and, again, how Estyn inspects. That must be at the forefront of development that takes place. Joyce Watson spoke, as she did effectively in committee, on the independent violence against women advisers and the multi-agency groupings, and the importance of joining up with UK Government and the police and crime commissioners, and, again, I very much welcomed that contribution, because it is very important to this debate.Janet Finch-Saunders, again, referred to the national adviser and some of the capacity issues that the Cabinet Secretary recognised. And it was good to hear the Cabinet Secretary talk about his view that we do need to look at these matters again, and, indeed, he has taken action and will consider matters further.Dirprwy Lywydd, I can see you indicating that time is very short—very short indeed—so I will conclude by thanking everyone, particularly the Cabinet Secretary because he really did listen to the debate and respond to the committee’s concerns. I know that, as we go forward, we will continue to work very closely with the Cabinet Secretary to make sure that there is that renewed focus and commitment from Welsh Government to ensure that this extremely important legislation, recognised by all the contributions today and our committee report and the stakeholders concerned, is now the subject of renewed focus and action from Welsh Government to ensure that that effective and timely implementation is driven forward. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to note the committee report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, under Standing Order 12.36, that motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. 6. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): LGBT History Month

We now move on to item 6, which is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21, and I call on Hannah Blythyn to move the motion on LGBT History Month.

Motion NDM6204 Hannah Blythyn, Jeremy Miles, Suzy Davies, Adam PriceTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes that February is LGBT History Month, an annual opportunity to promote diversity and equality across Wales.2. Further notes the contribution that LGBT plus people have made to our communities and country.3. Recognises the role played by Welsh LGBT icons and allies in Wales as illustrated in this month’s LGBT icons and allies exhibition in the Senedd.4. Welcomes the progress made in the past few decades on LGBT rights and acceptance.5. Believes that vigilance is needed to ensure that LGBT plus rights are protected.6. Takes the lead in continuing to progress equality and challenging discrimination and division, ensuring Wales is a welcoming nation for LGBT plus people.

Motion moved.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to colleagues for supporting this individual Members’ debate, enabling us to have the opportunity to mark LGBT History Month for the first time on the floor of the National Assembly for Wales. LGBT History Month is celebrated in February across the UK and is a now annual event that provides us with an opportunity to promote diversity and equality across Wales and recognise the contribution that LGBT people have made to our communities and our country. Indeed, we’ve come a long way in the past few decades alone when it comes to LGBT rights. If I think back myself, growing up in north-east Wales, going to school in the constituency that I now serve, if you’d told me I would be standing here today opening a debate on LGBT equality, led by openly lesbian and gay Assembly Members for the first time in the Assembly’s history, well, for starters, the Assembly didn’t exist when I was a teenager, but I genuinely never imagined I would have the courage or the confidence to be part of this as one of the first out Assembly Members.

The Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Whilst there is still more that we can do on LGBT rights, we must not and never should be complacent, but it’s right today that we take time to celebrate our diversity and progress as a society. I hope that today’s debate provides a chance to present the positives and offer an all-important message of hope to LGBT people in Wales, in particular younger LGBT people, whilst, at the same time, outlining the challenges that remain and the next steps needed.The themes of LGBT History Month this year are citizenship, personal, social and health education and law, and there are over 1,000 events happening across the UK. Schools that celebrate difference and take a positive approach to including LGBT issues in their teaching across the curriculum see lower rates of bullying and high achievements amongst LGBT pupils. The introduction of the new curriculum in Wales provides an opportunity to show that all schools can incorporate a positive approach to LGBT inclusion in their teaching and deliver LGBT-inclusive sex and relationship education. We need to see statutory guidance issued to all local authorities, schools and education consortia on age-appropriate sex and relationship education. At secondary schools, they should ensure that issues facing lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans young people are covered in topics such as consents and online safety. In primary schools, this should involve talking about different types of families, including same-sex parents, making young people aware of the diversity of family life and relationships before entering secondary school, and work to tackle gender stereotypes in lessons and activities. In addition, there needs to be a clear commitment to train teachers and other school staff in tackling homophobic, biphobic and transphobic bullying. We know that the majority of school staff want to tackle this bullying, but often feel they don’t have the tools, confidence or right resources to do so. On that note, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Cabinet Secretary for Education for taking the time to meet with myself and Jeremy Miles and for her commitment to tackle these important issues.At lunch time today, I hosted the launch of the Pride Cymru LGBT Icons and Allies exhibition here in the Senedd. The exhibition features 20 role models and allies from LGBT history and today. Supported by the Heritage Lottery Fund, it celebrates artistic, literary, business, military and charitable as well as campaigning figures. It will perhaps come as no surprise to colleagues here that the exhibition features a number of political activists and campaigners. I’d like to pay tribute to the courage and the commitment of those people who campaigned and fought, over a number of years, so that we would shift the political debate and legislate on equality.I often get asked when I go to Pride events, ‘Why have you got politics at Pride? It’s meant to be fun.’ Well, at its best, politics has the potential to change lives, and I am proud to represent the party today that led the way on legislating on equal rights, on LGBT rights, enabling people like me to be able to stand here, to live our lives as who we are and for how we are. On the subject of Pride events, I just want to get in a shameless plug. It would be remiss of me not to mention that the first ever Flintshire Pride will take place on Saturday 27 May this year in Mold rugby club in my constituency. I will obviously be attending. [Laughter.]A sense of history is important to community cohesion, as well as providing role models who inspire young people and demonstrating positively the role of LGBT people as part of our society. I’m incredibly and eternally grateful to those who were prepared to be the pioneers in much more difficult and turbulent times, who paved the way that enabled people like me to be more inclined to stick up our heads above the parapet today.When I was first approached to sponsor the launch of the LGBT Icons and Allies exhibition, I was actually taken aback to realise how little I knew personally about those who were part of the exhibition. It got me thinking how much, as a teenager, growing up, I definitely struggled to find people that I could identify with or prominent LGBT role models. I’m proud to be one of the first out Members of the National Assembly for Wales and, for me, actually, I wanted to be open and honest in the way that I approach politics. For me, it was important to be open and honest about who I am. Because we know that visibility is important. There’s a saying that you cannot be what you can’t see. This was brought home to me just a couple of months after I was elected, when I was attending a local event, and somebody came up to me and said about two teenagers who were gay and had said to them that they’d just found out on social media recently that I was too, and it had made a massive difference to them. What moved me was not what they said about me, but actually the fact that we have moved so much as a society since 20 years ago, when I was a similar age, that teenagers feel they are able to be open about their sexuality.But we shouldn’t forget that the decision to come out is unique to each individual and almost always fraught with anxiety. We’ve come a long way, but coming out, whether personally, publicly and/or politically, still remains a deeply personal and unique moment for most LGBT people. Our choice to reveal this part of our identity comes with a fear of how others will react, how it will impact on us, on our lives or the lives of those around us, and I believe that our message today to every LGBT person in Wales must be: you are amazing, you are valued and you have a contribution to make to your community and to our country as you are and for who you are. I hope that, one day, we live in a world where every LGBT person can find a network of friendship and support that allows them to be themselves and, in turn, challenge isolation and hate.In coming to a close I just want to recap a story. Recently, I went back to my old school to an annual awards evening. You can stand up on numerous occasions in this Chamber, you can give interviews in the media, but I know that when I walk through those doors at my old school, I am a nervous, shy 15-year-old again. One of the questions they asked me in the questions and answers—the final question—was, ‘What advice would you give to students here today?’ The advice I gave was, ‘Be yourself and believe in yourself.’ Because it can sometimes seem like the worst thing in the world to be different, particularly when you’re an awkward teenager, but it does get better, trust me—which I know is quite an ironic thing to say as a politician. [Laughter.] Trust me; seriously, it does get better. Just before I was elected I actually took part in the Stonewall Role Models programme in a previous life as a union representative. The quote that was taken from that, which I had no—. I didn’t realise at the time how prophetic that was going to become. I said that I wanted to be part of creating a more, more representative Wales. I think today, and going forward, we have a defining opportunity as the National Assembly for Wales to lead on LGBT equality, and lead we must. Diolch yn fawr. [Assembly Members: ‘Hear, hear’.]

Adam Price AC: It’s a real pleasure to follow Hannah Blythyn and to speak in this first opportunity that this Assembly has to celebrate LGBT history in Wales. I, once, at a Pride event in Cardiff, claimed that the Welsh had actually invented homosexuality. I prayed in aid, Emlyn Williams’s 1937 play, ‘He was Born Gay’, and indeed Ivor Novello’s musical—his last musical—’Gay’s the Word’ in 1950. Of course, they were both members of the LGBT community. In fact, Emlyn Williams wrote a very brave autobiography, a way ahead of its time, actually presenting, I think, for his time, the searing conflict for somebody who was from a mining village from north Wales in trying to reconcile the different elements in his identity—the mosaic of his identity. In some ways, actually having a word for being who we are was the first step—the naming of things. There was power, actually, in that word: ‘gay and lesbian’, ‘LGBT’. That was the first step. But, actually knowing our history is the next necessary stage because, in some ways, we in Wales have experienced this in a different dimension: as Welsh gay and lesbian people, we have been written out of our own history—out of Welsh history. We are invisible in large tracts of time. Centuries go by. You will find the word ‘hoyw’ in the poetry of the middle ages, but of course, it’s not with its modern reference. You have to go right back, actually, to the founding period—or the founding myths—and actually some of the sneers that were thrown at us, supposedly because of their own homophobia. Actually, we are told that homosexuality was the national sin. Gildas tells us that Maelgwn Gwynedd was guilty of it. It’s repeated, of course, in Geoffrey of Monmouth and in Gerald of Wales. In fact, in reference to the Celts, you can go back as far as Aristotle. It was used as an imperial smear, and I wonder whether that, actually, has cast a shadow in terms of our relationship with our LGBT community. Ironically, of course, as we are hearing about the Synod at the moment, even John Peckham, who was the Archbishop of Canterbury, in his series of letters to Llywelyn ein Llyw Olaf, one of the insults that he throws at Llywelyn is this repeated idea of the Welsh being homosexual. It is there, right at the beginning of our history, this smear. Ironically, of course, Edward II, the Prince of Wales that was held up in 1284, his lover is one of the icons that is outside here. They were captured together, of course, fleeing from Neath abbey to Llantrisant. Hugh Despenser the Younger was executed immediately; Edward II later. Martyrs—not the first and not the last in the history of the LGBT community worldwide, and neither here in Wales. Invisible, then, for large swathes of our time. You get, then, to the twentieth century, and some of our writers, as I referred to: Prosser Rhys winning the crown in 1924 with a poem about his own grappling with his sexual identity. The Dictionary of Welsh Biography records it thus:In 1924, at the national eisteddfod held at Pontypool, he won the crown for his poem ‘Atgof ‘, a poem which was unusual in its form and its content and which caused a stir at the time.’Classic Welsh understatement. [Laughter.] It’s the poets and the writers of Wales that have to tell those untold invisible stories: the Dave Llewellyns, the Mihangel Morgans, the Dafydd James, the Sarah Waters, the Peter Gills, Roger Williams, Paul Burston, Jan Morris and others. They have to tell the stories that were unwritten. We know that we were there. If you go back to the sixth century, among the penitentiaries that are offered is, again, one for the sin of sodomy. From the sixteenth century on, we know that people in Wales were convicted wrongly for being none other than who they were. So, we have always been here. We are part of this nation. We are part of its history. And, we are part of its future too.

Mark Isherwood AC: Stonewall Cymru have stated that 55 per cent of LGB pupils have experienced bullying on the basis of their sexual orientation; 83 per cent of trans young people have experienced verbal abuse and 35 per cent have experienced physical assault. When I pursued the case of a Flintshire schoolboy victim of homophobic bullying, I was told by a chief education officer that the secondary schools in the county had benefited from extensive training in healthy schools and anti-bullying approaches, but the mum then told me, ‘I’m totally and utterly frustrated at just how much disinterest has been demonstrated by the individuals assigned to deal with my son’s case, my questions remain unanswered, and so, therefore, the issue remains unresolved’. This is about understanding and acceptance. LGBT people in Wales continue to face significant health inequalities, with only one in 20 health and social care professionals having received training on LGBT people’s health needs, according to Stonewall. For this debate, the Terrence Higgins Trust sent me a briefing, stating that rates of HIV and sexually transmitted infections continue to rise, and that gay and bisexual men and young people continue to bear the brunt across Wales, yet access to sexual health services across Wales, including for the LGBT community, continues to deteriorate. They said there’s currently no statutory sexual health service provision in Powys, and that sexual health prevention and health promotion services have been decommissioned in Betsi Cadwaladr, Cwm Taf and Hywel Dda health boards, despite these areas being, they say, the most deprived.In November 2016, the Welsh Government announced a comprehensive review of sexual health services in Wales, led by Public Health Wales. The Terrence Higgins Trust states it must be done in partnership with communities affected by HIV and sexual ill health and fully meet the needs of these groups, including gay and bisexual men. The Welsh Government national action plan on sexual health and well-being has come to an end, and with no new strategy in place. The Welsh Government, they say, must use the findings of its current review into HIV and sexual health services, as well as evidence around the need for sex and relationship education, to update its expired action plan and set out how it will tackle increasing rates of sexually transmitted infections, support people living with HIV to manage their health and well-being, and ensure that all young people receive the sex and relationship education they want and need. The new action plan should address the current and emerging issues around HIV and sexual health, including sexualised drug use and the availability of HIV pre-exposure prophylaxis, described as a game changer in the fight against HIV, protecting HIV-negative people from acquiring HIV by taking anti-HIV drugs when they are at risk of exposure to HIV.A new Terrence Higgins Trust report, ‘Uncharted Territory’, shines a light on the needs and experiences of people living with HIV aged over 50, including the needs of gay and bisexual men living with HIV. The effectiveness of modern treatment means that people living with the condition can expect to live a full life. This is to be celebrated. However, this success brings with it a set of new challenges. Fifty-eight per cent of people living with the condition aged 50 plus were defined as living on or below the poverty line—double the levels of poverty seen in the general population. Eighty-four per cent of people living with the condition aged 50 and over were concerned about how they will manage multiple health conditions in the future. People aged 50 plus have faced discrimination from social care professionals due to their HIV status, and a third were socially isolated, and 82 per cent experienced moderate to high levels of loneliness. Although social isolation and loneliness are not confined to people living with the condition, those over 50 living with HIV see both social isolation and loneliness as significant concerns, now and for the future. It is therefore essential that HIV organisations, as well as health and social care professionals, consider how isolation and loneliness can be alleviated in older people.Prejudice and discrimination at the end of life have a devastating impact on LGBT people. At its very worst, it means someone will spend their last days feeling isolated, alone, angry and unwelcome. For those who lose a loved one, not being able to say goodbye in a respectful and peaceful environment can make grief and bereavement that much harder to bear. So, let us tackle inequality and promote diversity across Wales together.

Joyce Watson AC: I’m really pleased to make a contribution to this afternoon’s debate, in part to celebrate LGBT History Month, and I speak today as the Assembly Commissioner with responsibility for equality and diversity. I want to thank Hannah Blythyn for bringing forward this important debate today, which has also been supported by Jeremy Miles, Adam Price and Suzy Davies. It is hugely important that, as Wales’s principal democratic institution, we celebrate diversity and provide a platform in a public arena to air and to share our views in light of the increased reporting on hate crimes. The Assembly has received external recognition for being an inclusive employer across a range of protected characteristics—for example, the Autism Access Award, an Age Positive champion, a Top Employer for Working Families, Investor in People Gold, and an award from Action on Hearing Loss, and has been recognised in ‘The Times Top 50 Employers for Women’. However, today I would like to concentrate my contribution on the Assembly’s successes as an LGBT-inclusive employer and service provider. As an Assembly Commissioner, with responsibility for equality, it’s important to me that we set an example to other organisations in Wales and beyond, that we provide a safe and an inclusive environment for staff and visitors. This sentiment is shared by the Assembly’s senior managers and its staff through the provision of a range of policies and approaches that have helped shape a culture that’s been recognised as among the best in class. Last month, the Assembly was recognised in Stonewall’s workplace equality index as the fifth best employer in the UK. We’ve been placed in the top five for the last three years, and for the fourth year running we’ve been awarded as the top public sector employer in Wales. I should also like to pay tribute to Ross Davies, one of the Assembly’s diversity managers, who was awarded Wales Ally of the Year at the Stonewall Cymru awards in recognition of the work he does to promote LGBT equality. The workplace equality network for LGBT staff, OUT-NAW, was established in 2008 and has worked hard to make our Assembly more LGBT-friendly over the years. It annually plans the Assembly’s contribution to LGBT History Month and the International Day against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia. It takes the Assembly’s outreach bus to events such as Pride Cymru, with OUT-NAW members volunteering to staff it throughout the day. The Assembly marched in the Pride Cymru parade for the first time in 2016 and was joined by the chief executive and members of the management board, who are all allies of the staff network. Attendance at Swansea Sparkle, a trans-inclusive event, is now a regular feature on the annual calendar of events. OUT-NAW developed a business case that has seen the introduction of gender-neutral toilet facilities across the Assembly’s three buildings in Cardiff Bay. Its co-chair has introduced a coaching and mentoring scheme for LGBT staff, as well as an opportunity for young LGBT people to gain work experience, which now takes place annually. I think it’s fair to say that LGBT equality has become a mainstream feature of the Assembly given the commitment of the OUT-NAW network, the Commission’s diversity strategy, and the commitment of the people who work here to make it a place where diversity thrives. Finally, I’d like to add that, although it’s a pleasure to receive external recognition for progress and our achievements for creating an LGBT-inclusive institution, what actually makes it even more special is that the staff make the time to share their experience and their resource with others. The vision therefore goes beyond the Assembly itself and most importantly reaches out to other organisations to help them to create inclusive working environments for the benefit of service users and their employees. As Stonewall says:People perform better when they can be themselves’.I’m sure Members in this Chamber will agree with me that we want everyone to be themselves, and to do so in a safe, supportive and nurturing environment. The achievements that I have spoken about today give me a great sense of pride and I’m delighted to be able to put them on the record as we debate and celebrate during LGBT History Month.

Mark Reckless AC: I congratulate the individual Members who have obtained this debate today, one of whom I studied with at university. I would like to emphasise the support of my party for this motion as a whole. I intend to focus my remarks on point 4, to welcome the progress made in the past few decades on LGBT rights and acceptance, because it’s less than three decades ago since the issue that first caused me to campaign on this issue—when the Westminster Parliament passed clause 28, which legislated against teaching the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship’.During the 1980s, I felt there was a greater recognition and acceptance of homosexuality and it was an issue that was at least beginning to settle down within our country. I think that that process was, if not halted, at least, I think, set back by up to a decade, by that piece of legislation.I first campaigned on the issue when I was a parliamentary candidate and there was a couple, a gay couple, in the constituency I was seeking to represent who went on hunger strike. They stuck with this for the best part of a week and established very significant media attention, and they were protesting for the right to register their relationship with the local council. Ken Livingstone, in London, had just introduced a register to allow gay couples to do that and perhaps be able to visit their partner in hospital and have some other rights where some public bodies at least would give recognition to that. I was proud when that couple succeeded and, actually, Medway Council in Kent I think became the second council in the United Kingdom to have such a register.But it was a double-edged campaign victory, because the couple involved, due to responses at least from some people on their local estate, and homophobic bullying that resulted from that, felt they had to leave their home and the next thing was trying to help them be rehoused with the council. At that time, I think 2001, clause 28 was still on the statute book. In Scotland, when the Scottish Parliament began, one of their first legislative acts was to remove it. In Wales, we did not have the power in this Assembly to do that and, for reasons I’m still slightly puzzled by, it took until 2003 before the Westminster Government legislated to remove section 28 from the statute book.Perhaps one of my proudest moments, which I felt was most meaningful, as a Westminster MP, was to vote on 5 February 2013 for equal marriage. The party I now represent opposed that legislation, but we now support it, and I think most members within UKIP, as within other parties, would support that. At the time, the majority—or at least more MPs of the party I was then a member of voted against that legislation than voted for it. But I think very few of them would do that today.I hope, even as we celebrate the progress that we’ve had in such an extraordinarily really short period of time, at least in the span of human history, that we don’t seek to be over critical or condemnatory of people who perhaps have taken a few years longer perhaps than us to revise their view. There’s a lot of criticism of Donald Trump, much of which I agree with, but, on this issue, he did, in a Republican convention, insert parts in his speech that got that audience to stand up and to applaud gay rights and to recognise the gay community in a way the Republican party in the US never had before. And, in 2008, Barack Obama certainly wasn’t campaigning for equal marriage on the terms we understand it today.I also note that, in the vote when we had equal marriage, there were four Liberal Democrat MPs who voted against that and I think at least a couple of dozen Labour MPs who did that. I hope it’s possible for people to maintain, at least in the private sphere, religion, and many people and MPs found that vote incredibly difficult because of either their religious views and conscience or because of the pressure they felt under from some constituents and those who spoke out most strongly about it to them. We saw, I think, with the new Liberal Democrat leader last year, him coming under great pressure, being asked whether he considered gay sex to be a sin, and that was a question he didn’t want to answer and I think that should be respected. I don’t think anyone really thinks that the Liberal Democrats are insufficiently committed to LGBT rights. And similarly, when Jeremy Corbyn, I think a few weeks ago, said that people chose to be gay, I think that was unfortunate and I think he misspoke and is from a generation and has a view as to what things are. I don’t for a moment think that he is insufficiently committed to LGBT rights and I wouldn’t want to criticise him in any way. So, I just hope we also don’t look back to the past, while we try to do as Adam Price says and celebrate LGBT people and what they contributed in the past without being able to be open about their sexuality—I hope we won’t overly try to condemn previous generations who, on this issue, had a different perspective than we did and, instead, celebrate how quickly things have changed and welcome this motion. We should have Wales as a welcoming place for the LGBT community and do as Hannah Blythyn said—particularly what you said about work in schools—compared to how I started my contribution, with what was done 29 years ago. How far we have come.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I also say I’m very pleased to be able to speak in this debate, and thank Hannah for bringing forward the motion—and the support from other Members? In the previous debate, a number of Members spoke on the importance of education in raising awareness among young people on the issue of gender-based violence. Well, the role of education in tackling prejudice and bullying around LGBT issues is no less significant, and that was something that Hannah referred to when she was moving this motion. But, before I go on to cover the main points that I wanted to talk about, can I just mention the Icons and Allies exhibition that we visited at lunchtime? It was very interesting to see Illtyd Harrington there, who was the Labour deputy leader of the Greater London Council, who was actually from Merthyr Tydfil. He’d lived openly gay with his partner in London way back in the 1980s, and I tweeted about that, and it was lovely to get a reply from a very good gay friend of mine from Merthyr, who said, ‘It’s good to see that things have moved on and that people no longer have to leave their area just to be themselves’. And that just made me smile and made me recognise how much things have moved on. However, I want to focus on two particular areas of education, and that is the role of school staff and the role of school governors. I don’t generally like to rattle off statistics, but a school report by Stonewall in 2012 identified that 55 per cent of lesbian, gay and bisexual pupils had experienced some form of bullying based on their sexual orientation, and 83 per cent of trans young people have experienced verbal abuse, with 35 per cent suffering physical assault. And the vast majority of staff in schools, I think, do want to be able to deal with homophobic, biphobic or transphobic bullying in their school, but all too often don’t feel that they have the tools or the confidence to be able to do so. As Mark Reckless mentioned, it’s now over 13 years since we scrapped section 28, but there are still many staff working in our schools today who had to deliver education services under the threat and fear of prosecution from that pernicious piece of legislation, and for some, working in a new environment of openness around LGBT issues—they can still present a challenge as it’s conflicting with those who are more comfortable in actively wanting to tackle homophobic, biphobic and trans bullying. Unsurprisingly, there is clear evidence of lower rates of bullying and higher rates of achievement amongst LGBT pupils in those schools that have made positive strides towards including LGBT issues within their teaching, but if school staff feel they need more support in tackling these issues, then surely school governors must have a role to play. There was another Stonewall report in 2014, which identified that only one in five secondary school teachers and one in six primary school teachers in Wales said that their governors had a directed, clear leadership role when it came to tackling bullying of LGBT pupils. I guess the first step in addressing this problem is probably to ensure that, as far as possible, the make-up of our school governors reflects the local community and that all school governing bodies should be looking to recruit more LGBT members who can make a significant contribution to reducing bullying as their own life experiences would more readily equip them to do so. But regardless of this, all school governors, whether LGBT or not, have a clear duty to tackle all forms of bullying in their schools. There are many measures that they can take to ensure that LGBT pupils do not become the victims of bullying, and that includes: ensuring that schools’ anti-bullying policies include specific reference to LGBT-related bullying; ensuring that governing bodies are regularly presented with figures on LGBT-related bullying and incidents; asserting what training has been provided to school staff on how to prevent or deal with LGBT bullying and support for victims; ensuring the training of all governors in school on LGBT issues; and getting the school to sign up to Stonewall’s school champions programme. I also made reference in the last debate to the development of the new curriculum and I’ll add a further plea. There’s a golden opportunity for LGBT-inclusive sex and relationships education to be a part of this new curriculum. This would make it compulsory for school governing bodies to take fully into account LGBT issues and any commitment to moving in this direction would give a greater incentive to school governors to embrace the sort of initiatives I’ve outlined. So, as someone who’s been a lifelong campaigner for equality in all its streams, I’m delighted to be supporting this motion that celebrates LGBT history month and recognise that progress has been made. But there is also a need for continued vigilance and for Wales to continue to take a lead in this area.

Nick Ramsay AC: Russ George and I have done a little wager on who Mark Reckless went to university with. You got us thinking earlier. I could see Hannah Blythyn shaking her head furiously when it was raised. But there we are. Can I also thank Hannah Blythyn for bringing this important issue to the Assembly today? I also concur with the thoughts of Joyce Watson as a commissioner. Suzy Davies couldn’t be here for this debate today but she wanted you to know that she fully supports this motion. I would say that, although we are supporting this motion, I do think that often we promote diversity and equality across Wales every day rather than properly celebrating it. There is a difference: a bit like the old difference between toleration and acceptance. I think we should relish diversity and appreciate our many tribes without the bitterness of tribalism. We are more than the sum of our parts. It’s become easy for us here to promote LGBT rights. Here we are in this Assembly, a very forward-looking organisation and institution, quite rightly recognised for its work and success in promoting equality and diversity. I am an ally; I have my little card on my desk, which I know other Assembly Members have as well. This institution never stands still and shouldn’t do so. We should be proud that our legislature is leading the way. Hannah Blythyn mentioned the exhibition in the Senedd upstairs earlier. I think that is genuinely inspiring, regardless of your sexuality or your gender. We as Assembly Members have easy access to that. We’ve got easy access to people in our community who want to tell us about their lives, their successes against prejudice, their wins against discrimination, their desire to educate against bullying and their zeal to advocate for those who live with hidden pain because of difference. It’s easy for us as politicians to believe the right thing, to say the right thing and, maybe a bit less easily, to do the right thing. Legislating on the age of consent, marriage, parenting and adoption—I welcomed Mark Reckless’ support for gay marriage when that came through Parliament—on pensions, on property, employment and even criminal offences to avoid discrimination on LGBT grounds: it’s easy because we here have the power. I think it’s right that the motion recognises the progress made on LGBT rights and acceptance. Rights and acceptance are, though, as I said before, different things. It’s still possible to have either without the other and this may always be the case where rights crash into each other in a secular or multi-religious society. Exercisable rights and acceptance can only arrive after understanding and, even now, in the LGBT-friendly bubble that we’re lucky to be in, we stumble across our own benign ignorance. It’s 60 years since the Wolfenden report was published; 60 years since the words ‘homosexual’ and ‘prostitute’ were considered so indelicate that they had to be substituted during the inquiry with the words ‘Huntley’ and ‘Palmer’, tainting custard creams with a touch of lewdness for ever after. [Laughter.] I’m glad you got that joke. It still took 10 years to introduce the legislation to decriminalise consenting homosexual behaviour between adult men, and it’s taken 60 years to pardon Alan Turing, whose trial was one of those that prompted the inquiry. This is why the vigilance required by the motion is every bit as important as the promotion, the celebration and the progress—and not just the rights, but the depth of the acceptance. Anyone who looked at the Marie Curie report ‘Hiding who I am’ will be brought up sharply as to quite how many holes there are in our acceptance, or at least our understanding of the experience of being LGBT, particularly in old age—that benign ignorance I mentioned earlier. The Wolfenden report was not a magic wand. Our older population still grew up in a time when being LGBT carried a heavy stigma, and could lead to exclusion, violence and even arrest. Coming out to health and social care professionals is still not an easy thing. Those with later stages of dementia can begin to re-experience feelings of shame and fear they had in their youth. They may even profess anger and revulsion for homosexuality, reflecting what was socially required when they were young. So, in conclusion, Presiding Officer, it’s not as easy as we may think to celebrate equality and diversity. It’s not just some of the horror stories we hear about in other parts of the world. Cultural loyalties and ignorance remain the parents of discrimination, and casual prejudice in many of our own communities. Add to that the quiet re-stigmatisation of those who fought and beat stigma post Wolfenden and I can see why this motion is about promotion, not celebration. I do, however, feel that it’s an excellent motion to be brought before the Assembly, and I think it shows what this Assembly can be when it’s at its best, and when Members have the best interests of this institution and Wales at its heart.

Vikki Howells AC: LGBT history month gives us the opportunity to look back and reflect on the progress made in advancing equality for LGBT+ people.As other speakers have noted, 2017 marks the sixtieth anniversary of the publication of the Wolfenden report, and the fiftieth anniversary of the passage of the Sexual Offences Act 1967, decriminalising sexual acts in private between two men. And in remembering both events, we can bear witness to the importance of this year’s theme of icons and allies, noting the role played by John Wolfenden, Leo Abse and Lord Arran. Of course, the Sexual Offences Act 1967 was part of that transformation in social attitudes that took place during the first Wilson Government, and I am proud to be able to stand here today as a Labour AM when so many of the advances in LGBT equality have taken place as a direct result of the intervention of Labour Governments.The record of the Blair and Brown Governments are especially impressive, with achievements including: the equalised age of consent; civil partnerships; adoption rights; banning discrimination in the workplace and access to goods and services; ending the ban on LGBT people serving in the armed forces and section 28; fertility rights for lesbians; rights for trans people to have their gender recognised in law; action against hate crimes; and the critically important Equality Act 2010.I am equally proud of the role played in moving forward the LGBT rights agenda by the National Union of Miners and its members in south Wales. I am sure that many of us here will have seen the film ‘Pride’—and if you haven’t, I would urge you to watch it—which shows the remarkable way in which two communities, alienated and marginalised by Thatcher’s Government, supported each other. That final scene, with the 1985 London Gay Pride march being joined by miners from Aberdare, the Phurnacite plant and Mountain Ash, all within my own constituency, captures the way in which both groups had come together to support one another.I also want to draw today on my experiences as a secondary school teacher. There was a significant pastoral element to my role, and this could at times involve dealing with and supporting students coming to terms with their sexuality, and facing the dilemma of whether or not to come out in what could be a highly charged and highly challenging school environment. Challenges could come from peers, from parents and other family members, but students and young people may also struggle to accept themselves and their own sexual identity, let alone face having to seek the support and approbation of those around them.Stonewall Cymru did some work a few years ago highlighting some worrying statistics around homophobic incidents that had been experienced by LGBT young people, and although I am glad to say that I didn’t personally witness any homophobic bullying during my teaching career, Stonewall also refers to the sense of isolation LGBT young people may feel. So, how can we tackle this? It is really important that schools teach acceptance of sexuality through their personal and social education programmes, and I fully support what Dawn Bowden said earlier about teachers needing more support and training in order to deliver those kinds of lessons appropriately. It’s also important that schools have stringent anti-bullying policies in place, and that sufficient support is provided to teachers and other school staff so they’re able to support young people during what can be a very difficult time. There may also be opportunities in the work the Welsh Government is doing now around teacher training and Successful Futures, and I hope that this can be fully investigated. It is also important that we offer our young people positive LGBT role models, and I hope that the Members for Delyn, Neath and Carmarthen East won’t mind me welcoming their important role in this regard, although it is a shame that it’s taken 17 years for the Welsh Assembly to elect its first openly LGBT AMs, and also sad that we still lag behind both the Scottish and Westminster Parliaments with regard to that representation. Other LGBT role models may be found across all walks of life, many of them covered by the icons element of today’s exhibition and many of whom are emblematic of the changes in attitude we’ve witnessed during the past few decades. Data from the 2016 Welsh election study did show that some unacceptable hostility to LGBT people still remains, but this was vastly outnumbered by those having favourable attitudes. Some important work done by my former student Jac Larner, now of the Wales Governance Centre, showed that younger people displayed overwhelmingly more favourable attitudes towards LGBT people than their older cohorts. This must give us great encouragement for the future of our nation, but as Ivor Novello, one of the icons celebrated today, said:Things which do not require effort of some sort are seldom worth having.’ Improving equality and eliminating discrimination do indeed take effort, and they are very definitely worth having.

Julie Morgan AC: I’m very pleased to take part in this debate today, and congratulations to the Members who have put it forward. I think this does give us an opportunity to celebrate the advances that are being made towards equality and to celebrate the individuals who’ve made this possible. First of all, I want to say I think it is so important that we have gay and lesbian Assembly Members leading the debate today. Hannah said in her introduction, ‘You can’t be what you can’t see’ and I think that is such an important message. I think we are more credible as an Assembly now in having this debate being led in the way it is being led.I wanted to use the time I had to mention two individual women who I know very well, who have made significant contributions to making Welsh life more tolerant and open-minded. The first is my constituent Janet Jeffries, who set up FFLAG—families and friends of LGBT people—after her son came out, and she has campaigned for many years for equality. She told me that her aim in all the work she’s done is to help parents and families to relate to their children with love and pride. At the time Janet set up FFLAG in 2001—sixteen years ago—it was a very different world, and many of the Members who have spoken today have referred to that. She said then that parents’ attitudes were fear of the discrimination that their children might face, their fear of AIDS, fear that they wouldn’t be able to get a job, and every day they were worried about issues they would have to face: gay couples were turned away from hotels, and there was none of the legislation that we’ve heard about today. I’m also very proud that Labour did lead the way in passing many of the groundbreaking legislation, because politics does make things happen, and Labour certainly had led the way. I was very pleased to be in the House of Commons to vote for the age of consent to be equalised, to vote for the repeal of section 28, which, as many people have said here today, was the most pernicious bit of legislation I think that we can ever think about, and also very pleased to vote for the Civil Partnership Act in 2004 and the Gender Recognition Act in 2004, and, of course, the adoption Act.At the time Janet was working, she said that it was commonplace for literature that they produced to be sent back from the printers. She said they sent a banner off to the printers for the organisation, and it was sent back because the word ‘gay’ was on it. You still hear of incidents like that, such as the bakers in Northern Ireland that refused to bake a cake with pro-gay marriage messages on it. But I think that is becoming much less often—it’s much more rare now. As Janet has told me, the world has changed now, but, of course, there’s still a long way to go, as we heard from the discussions in the church that have been taking place over the last couple of days. Janet was awarded a British empire medal in the new year’s honours list for her campaigning work, and I’m very proud to have her in my constituency, and wish her a speedy recovery from her illness.The other woman I want to mention is Gloria Jenkins, who features in the exhibition Icons and Allies. She, with Janet, set up FFLAG, and she’s been a campaigning force in south Wales for many years. She was the co-chair of Stonewall Cymru and is one of the key people to establish it firmly as an organisation in Wales. I’ve known Gloria for many years, and my husband, Rhodri Morgan, at the time MP for Cardiff West, with Kevin Brennan, his assistant at the time, campaigned with Gloria and with her family and friends for Gloria’s daughter’s Canadian partner, Tammy, to be able to stay in the UK. This was a very high-profile campaign and it was successful, and Tammy was one of the first lesbians to be granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK because of a meaningful same-sex relationship. So, that was what Gloria started to campaign on, and she has campaigned ever since. It was fantastic to see her there up in that Senedd reception today, and I want to congratulate her on all she’s done. So, I just wanted to use the opportunity to mention these two women who’ve been great allies and have worked really, really hard, making a tremendous contribution.I’d just like, finally, to end on a policy level, echoing what many people have said in this debate and the previous debate. I want to give a plea for meaningful sex and relationship education to be given in schools. As the Terrence Higgins Trust says, good-quality, age-appropriate LGBT-inclusive sex education should be available in all schools in Wales.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Carl Sargeant AC: Llywydd, it’s a pleasure to respond to this afternoon’s debate, having listened to the contributions from all across the Chamber. Today’s debate on LGBT History Month is not the first time we’ve had to discuss LGBT equality in the Senedd, but it is very significant that, for the first time in our history, the debate has been led by openly lesbian and gay Assembly Members: Hannah Blythyn, Adam Price and, shortly, Jeremy Miles. I am grateful to them all, and Suzy Davies, indeed, for bringing the motion forward today, and also for many other Members’ contributions, too. We’ve heard personal stories, we’ve heard about the ongoing work towards LGBT equality and we’ve heard about, still, what needs to be done.Those who are not LGBT cannot know the full extent of the pressures that our friends are facing in discovering, accepting and finding the freedom to be who they are, but all of us, I hope, can be good allies in empathising with the experience and fear of not being accepted or, worse, facing direct discrimination. Friends, the Welsh Government stands committed to enhancing the lives and opportunities of lesbian, gay, bi and trans people across Wales and, through our equality and inclusion grant, we have supported projects to challenge homophobic, biphobic and transphobic bullying in schools. We work across agencies on increasing the reporting of anti-LGBT hate incidents, and we’ve supported the setting up of groups like Trans*form Cymru for young trans people. In the last Assembly, my predecessor Lesley Griffiths brought forward a transgender action plan. A priority within the plan is the implementation of the NHS Wales transgender strategy for Wales, which will include a care pathway and guidance for healthcare practitioners to support the pathway; £0.5 million has been allocated in 2017-18 to improve gender identity services in Wales.The Welsh Government’s decision in 2011 to seek additional and specific public sector equality duties in Wales has also brought an important cultural shift in the way our public bodies serve the needs of people across all protected characteristics.Llywydd, consequently, there has been a demonstrable improvement in how organisations seek to support the LGBT people, both in service delivery and as employers. Just two weeks ago—congratulations to this Assembly on receiving an award for being the top public sector employer and fifth best employer in Britain for LGBT people. Despite such success, there’s much more to do, and we’ve heard that from Members today. Members here are making sure that action is firmly on the agenda. I know that Jeremy has raised trans healthcare with the Cabinet Secretary for health, along with Hannah, who has met the Cabinet Secretary for Education to discuss LGBT issues in our schools, and sex education, relationship education, which Julie Morgan talked about.We cannot take progress for granted, however. In countries around the globe there are people committed to rolling back LGBT rights. We are committed to advancing them, just as we did in 2002, when this Welsh Assembly Government released guidance to schools that effectively ended the homophobic section 28, a year before its full repeal in Westminster. I mentioned section 28 because I think it still hits at the heart of this debate, brought up by Members in this Chamber. In practice, what it meant was that gay pupils were never told, ‘It’s okay to be who you are.’ They never learned about different ideas and identities. They were never told or had role models such as Gareth Thomas, Nigel Owens, Jeremy Miles, Hannah Blythyn or, indeed, Adam Price. Instead, they learned to be isolated, to be hidden, to be silent. A generation of young LGBT people were opened up to bullying sanctioned by the state. The generation that came before them were told that being LGBT was illegal and wrong. The impact of that history is still felt today. Although we may now live in a country that celebrates equal rights, same-sex marriage and protection from discrimination, we must not forget the thousands of lives hidden and lost to the past that treated lesbian, gay, bi and trans people as less than equal. This LGBT History Month, we remember their history, Llywydd, and we celebrate the love and humanity that we all share here today. Diolch.

I call on Jeremy Miles to reply to the debate.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to all contributors this afternoon for the wide range of contributions that have been very thoughtful. If you had told the version of me 10 years ago that I would be standing here as a proud gay man on the floor of the Assembly in Wales, he would have been shocked and would have been frightened. Frightened at the shame that the 10-year-old version of me would have felt. That’s a long time ago now.Finding out that I was a gay man in a very close Welsh community at the beginning of the 1980s wasn’t a very pleasant experience. I didn’t have any gay role models, no discussion, no awareness, no support, only a sense of being isolated. So, when people say, ‘Well, it’s not news anymore that we have politicians who are gay’—well, no, fair enough, but we should all take the opportunity, when we can, to shed light on those who are still battling, and some are still doing this, and offer some hope to the family, parents, neighbours and friends who are seeking comfort, or seeking the right words to say, or just an opportunity to raise the subject. So, it’s excellent to have an opportunity to talk here and to acknowledge the role of the LGBT community in our history and in Wales today.Mae’r ddadl hon heddiw yn ymwneud â gwerth sylfaenol cymdeithas wâr, sef cydraddoldeb. Mae cydraddoldeb yn anwahanadwy. Fy mrwydr i am gydraddoldeb yw eich brwydr chi dros gydraddoldeb. Efallai mai ni yw’r Aelodau Cynulliad agored hoyw cyntaf yng Nghymru, ond rwy’n aml yn edrych yn ôl ar y gwleidydd agored hoyw cyntaf y bydd llawer ohonom yn ei gofio: Harvey Milk, a oedd yn aelod cynulliad yn San Francisco ar ddiwedd y 1980au. Rhoddodd araith bwysig am werth gobaith:Yr unig beth sydd ganddynt i edrych ymlaen ato yw gobaith. A rhaid i chi roi gobaith iddynt. Gobaith am fyd gwell, gobaith am well yfory, gobaith am le gwell i ddod iddo os yw’r pwysau gartref yn rhy fawr. Gobaith y bydd popeth yn iawn. Heb obaith, nid yn unig y mae’r hoywon, ond y bobl dduon, yr henoed, yr anabl, y ‘ni-oedd’.Bydd y "ni-oedd" yn rhoi’r gorau iddi.Mae cydraddoldeb yn anwahanadwy. Nid rhywbeth ar gyfer pobl sydd wedi brwydro’n gyhoeddus iawn dros eu cydraddoldeb yn unig ydyw: pobl dduon, yr henoed, yr anabl y soniodd Harvey Milk amdanynt. Mae’n cynnwys y ‘ni-oedd’ hefyd—pob un ohonom. Rydym yma i ddathlu gwahaniaeth heddiw, ac mewn sawl ffordd, rydym i gyd yn wahanol. Weithiau, mae’r gwahaniaeth hwnnw’n cael ei ddeall yn well. Weithiau, mae’r gwahaniaeth hwnnw’n anos i’w oddef nag ar adegau eraill. Roedd yna adeg pan oedd bod wedi ysgaru, bod yn fam sengl, cael wyron hil gymysg yn achosion cywilydd a gwahaniaethu. Hyd yn oed heddiw, mae yna stigma mawr a gwahaniaethu, ynglŷn â sgyrsiau agored am iechyd meddwl, dyweder. Lle y gwnaed cynnydd, ni fuasai wedi digwydd heblaw bod pobl ddewr, pobl ymrwymedig, wedi ymladd. Maent wedi gwrthod eistedd yng nghefn y bws. Siaradodd Jonathan Sachs, y cyn-brif rabi, am urddas gwahaniaeth—ein bod yn rhoi gwerth ar ein gilydd, nid yn unig oherwydd yr hyn sydd gennym yn gyffredin, ond oherwydd ein bod yn adnabod rhywbeth yn ein gilydd nad yw gennym ni. Mae urddas gwahaniaeth o’r fath dan fygythiad yn y byd heddiw.Mae gwleidyddiaeth yn ymwneud â’r hyn y dewiswch falio yn ei gylch—y cwestiynau y dewiswch eu gofyn, nid a ydych yn rhoi’r ateb cywir i’r cwestiwn pan fydd rhywun yn ei ofyn i chi. Mae cryn dipyn o gefnogaeth yn y Siambr hon i gydraddoldeb LHDT+. Mae cryn dipyn o gefnogaeth yn San Steffan. Ond gan mai Mis Hanes LHDT yw hwn, efallai y maddeuwch i mi sôn am un atgof. Roeddwn i’n byw yn Llundain yn y 1990au cynnar pan oedd gorymdeithiau Pride yn orymdeithiau yn erbyn y Llywodraeth am orthrwm yn erbyn y gymuned LHDT. Nid dim ond Llywodraeth nad oedd yn ariannu’r rhaglenni iawn neu’n dweud y pethau cywir oedd hi. Pan oeddwn yn fy arddegau, roedd hi’n Llywodraeth a oedd nid yn unig yn goddef gwahaniaethu, ond a oedd wedi mynd ati’n weithredol i ddyfeisio ffyrdd newydd ac arloesol o wneud bywydau pobl hoyw yn llai goddefadwy. Felly, heddiw, rwyf am ddiolch i’r holl bobl a frwydrodd dros hawliau yr ydym yn eu mwynhau heddiw ac sydd wedi arwain drwy esiampl. Rydym wedi cofio am lawer ohonynt heddiw yn y Senedd.Rwy’n falch o fod yn Aelod Cynulliad dros Onllwyn, a dyna ble y seiliwyd y ffilm ‘Pride’. Clywsom heddiw am Dai Donovan, a weithiodd gyda Grŵp Cefnogi Glowyr Cymoedd Nedd, Dulais a Thawe i ddod â’r LGSM—Lesbiaid a Hoywon yn Cefnogi’r Glowyr—i Gwm Dulais. Fel y gwnaeth Vikki, hoffwn gydnabod gwaith Undeb Cenedlaethol y Glowyr yn rhoi cydraddoldeb LHDT ar yr agenda gyhoeddus yn y 1980au. Hoffwn gydnabod gwaith Llywodraeth Lafur 1997, wedi’i chefnogi gan bleidiau blaengar eraill, a ysgubodd ymaith lu o gyfreithiau gwahaniaethu a chyflwyno llawer o’n hawliau cyfartal. Wrth wneud hynny, crewyd hinsawdd wleidyddol i lawer o Geidwadwyr allu mynegi eu cefnogaeth i hawliau LHDT yn ogystal.Ond nid gwlad heb wahaniaethu yn ei deddfau yw’r pen draw mewn cymdeithas wâr. Dyna’r man cychwyn. Mae gennym lawer ar ôl i’w wneud o ran newid agweddau. Heddiw, rwy’n teimlo bod gennym ffordd bell i fynd, er enghraifft, yn ein hagweddau tuag at y gymuned drawsrywiol. Rydym yn bell o weld agweddau teg ac iach yno. Hoffwn gydnabod gwaith Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Iechyd, Llesiant a Chwaraeon, sydd wedi cael ei grybwyll eisoes heddiw, am y gwaith sy’n mynd rhagddo ar symud yr agenda iechyd yn ei blaen i bobl drawsrywiol, a’r cytundeb rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a Phlaid Cymru oedd y sylfaen ar gyfer hynny.Mae yna bobl heddiw sy’n gwylio’r ddadl hon sy’n dal i aros am gydraddoldeb—yn ymarferol, os nad yn y gyfraith. Byddant yn aros ac yn gwylio am anogaeth, ac am ymrwymiad gwleidyddol. Ein gwaith, fel y dywedodd y gwleidydd dewr wrthym am ei wneud, yw rhoi gobaith iddynt.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. 7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Banking Services

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendments 2, 3 and 4 in the name of Paul Davies. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

The next item on the agenda is the Plaid Cymru debate and I call on Adam Price to move the motion.

Motion NDM6240 Rhun ap IorwerthTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Recognises the importance of easily accessible financial advice and banking services to individuals and businesses in all communities in Wales.2. Regrets the closure of bank and building society branches in communities across Wales.3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:i) urgently explore all options to meet the financial needs of individuals and businesses in Wales; andii) examine the legislative and regulatory steps necessary to establish alternative models of banking service provision, including a Welsh People’s Bank on the model of local savings banks.

Motion moved.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Banking in Wales since we lost the last of our locally owned banks at the beginning of the twentieth century has been the financial equivalent of the branch plant economy, characterised by local branches of large shareholder-owned companies headquartered in the City of London. Wales has been a victim, in that sense, of the most centralised and highly concentrated banking system probably anywhere in the industrialised world, with a market share of over 85 per cent, I think, for the big five.We’re now entering a worrying new phase in that history of dominance, whereby even the branches of that branch plant economy are being closed, and large swathes of our country—rural communities, impoverished communities, not lucrative enough to achieve the kind of returns that modern banks are seeking—risk becoming a financial desert, without any form of comprehensive banking service. Wales is actually being hit more badly than most parts of the UK, and according to UBS, we probably stand to lose another 50 per cent of our remaining branch network over the next decade. Banks have presented this as part of a natural migration to online-only banking—the financial equivalent of processes that are under way in the economy elsewhere. And there’s an element of truth to this, but it’s also exaggerated by banks that are simply seeking to maximise profits by cutting costs associated with providing relationship banking, which does require universal coverage and face-to-face services. And the proof of that is that the rate of acceleration in branch closure is far greater than the decline in branch activity. And of course, it flies in the face of what people say. Research for the Competition and Markets Authority in 2015 found that 63 per cent of current account customers felt that having a convenient local branch was either essential or very important, and that rose to 76 per cent for those who are among the digitally excluded. Far from merely responding to changes in the marketplace, banks are actually choosing to close banks in poorer areas while retaining them—actually, they’re even opening new branches—in more affluent areas, particularly in London. They’re doing this regardless of the impact that a branch closure will have for the unbanked, the digitally excluded, the elderly, the disabled, those on a low income and those living in rural communities. And the impact on business in unbanked communities is particularly acute. Research by Move Your Money, the campaigning group, using British Bankers Association lending data, shows that bank branch closures dampen SME lending growth by 63 per cent, on average, in postcode areas that lose a bank branch. That figure rises to 104 per cent for postcode areas that lose their last bank in town. On average, postcode areas that lose their last bank in town receive £1.6 million a year less in lending over the course of a year. Sadly, banks don’t take into account the public interest or the effect a closure will have in making these decisions. These are predetermined closure announcements, there’s no consultation, and that’s why we find the access to banking protocol, referred to in one of the Conservative amendments, wholly inadequate. The existing model of banking in this country, which is based on supposed competition between these dominant big five, we contend is broken. The so-called challenger banks are targeting already affluent areas, or in the case digital-only banks, younger customers, not those areas that are underserved. The poorest are most likely to lack access to banking, and small business is neglected and lending, as we know, is disproportionately focused on London and the south-east of England.Alternative institutions do exist—some of those who are part of the Responsible Finance network referred to in the Conservative amendment—but they struggle to compete in a system set up to privilege the big banks. What we need, we believe, is a more diverse banking system. Most other countries have a mixed economy in banking, which provides both greater stability and public accountability. We need access to finance for underserved groups to be recognised as a public good, and that’s why we’re asking the Welsh Government to take a more active role in the provision of this basic and essential service. The Government already accepts the principle of direct intervention as a result of market failure in financial services. That, after all, was the rationale for the creation of Finance Wales back in 2002, and it remains the rationale for the creation of the new development bank. Of course, the development bank will carry the name ‘bank’, but it’s not currently intended to be a deposit-taking institution. It uses revolving or evergreen funds to provide debt capital or long-term equity, leveraging through partnering with other funders rather than using the tool of fractional reserve banking to create credit in the way that banks traditionally do. That’s why I think we do need to create a public bank for Wales, so that we can use that tool of leverage and actually provide that capital at a greater level throughout our communities more equitably. There are three potential models that could be followed: one would involve the development bank working in partnership with existing financial institutions to provide access to services, possibly via a network of last-bank-in-town shared facilities. It’s the kind of arrangement or partnership that the often-quoted Bank of North Dakota, which is publicly owned, has with private sector banks in its own state. That said, many of the institutions that the Bank of North Dakota co-operate with are themselves community banks, which are a very important part of the US equivalent of the mixed economy in banking, and UK banks thus far have shown very little enthusiasm for this model of neutral shared branches that was long promoted by the Campaign for Community Banking Services. A second option would be for the development bank to help capitalise a network of local savings banks in conjunction with local authorities, similar to the model we see in the sparkassen of Germany, for example, or the cantonal banks in Switzerland. Shared services in terms of the back office could be provided by the national development bank to this network of local savings banks. This is the model being promoted by the Community Savings Bank Association, which is already being trialled in Hampshire with the assistance of the international sparkassen foundation. A third option is to partner with one of the few successful financial institutions that we have in Wales that is still locally owned, the Principality. It was very good to see them report excellent financial results today. The option there is to help them to develop even further into a mutually owned clearing bank. We’re entirely open on the means, but the goal of ensuring a people’s bank of Wales is one that should unite us all in this Chamber. Now that the current banks are turning their backs in ever increasing numbers on our people, it’s time actually to create a bank for the people here in Wales. I’ll give way.

Mike Hedges AC: I heard what you said, but can you just confirm that you wish the Principality, whatever happens, to stay mutually owned, not turn into the type of bank that happened previously, most of which—in fact, all of which—went into financial problems?

Adam Price AC: Oh, absolutely, and Mike Hedges raises a very important point, of course. We had aspects, didn’t we, of a mixed economy in banking in decades gone by? We had, before the disastrous policy of demutualisation, which laid waste to our successful building societies in large part—some of those remain, of course, and are very successful indeed, and some of them are also opening branches, but opening them, possibly, not necessarily just in the leafy lanes of London—we also had the savings banks, didn’t we? They were a network and united under the banner of the Trustee Savings Bank, and yet again that was disastrously privatised and sadly the last one has now closed. Wales could, like Catalonia, build up a powerful, public-purpose financial institution like La Caixa, which has grown from its roots as a savings bank aimed at the working class of Barcelona to what it is today, one of the largest, most successful banks in Catalonia, delivering €500 million a year to its associated charity, making it the third-biggest charity in the entire world. That’s what putting the people’s money in a people’s bank could achieve for Wales if we had similar boldness and imagination.

I have selected the four amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for economy to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 1—Jane HuttDelete point 3 and replace with:Welcomes the work of the Welsh Government in promoting financial inclusion, including support for advice services and credit unions, and the ambitions set out in the 2016 Financial Inclusion Strategy for a well functioning and comprehensive financial system in Wales.Recognises the need for the Welsh and UK Governments to work together with partners to improve access to affordable credit and financial services and information for individuals, including debt advice.Recognises the need to improve financial capability in Wales and notes the work being undertaken to establish the Development Bank of Wales and its intelligence unit which will better target financial services and advice for micro, small and medium sized businesses in Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Ken Skates AC: Moved formally.

I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendments 2, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Paul Davies—Mark Isherwood.

Amendment 2—Paul DaviesIn point 3 b), delete ‘a Welsh People’s Bank on the model of local savings banks’ and replace with:the community banking model developed in Wales by Responsible Finance’

Amendment 3—Paul DaviesAdd as new point at end of Motion:Welcomes the independent ‘Access to Banking Protocol One Year on Review’ by Professor Russel Griggs OBE, published in November 2016.

Amendment 4—Paul DaviesAdd as new point at end of Motion:Welcomes the new Post Office Partnership agreement with UK Banks.

Amendments 2, 3 and 4 moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Having an accessible local branch is important for older people, those without transport or internet access, shopkeepers, small businesses and others. Unlike the idiots who were allowed to wreck our banking system, I am a qualified banker, previously working in the building society sector, mutual, who has campaigned against branch closures in both sectors.Speaking here in November 2013 after HSBC announced the closure of branches in Llangollen, Conwy and Beaumaris, I highlighted concerns raised by constituents about the impact this would have on them, businesses in their towns, their communities, and the thousands of tourists visiting their area. The branch that starred in a NatWest tv advert pledging to keep every branch open as long as it was the last in the community was shut. A year ago, Barclays announced plans to shut its branch in Buckley, Flintshire, with accounts moved to Mold, a six-mile round trip. This was the third bank to announce a closure in the town in six months. Following HSBC’s announcement of branch closures in Chirk and Ruabon, customers noted that there were often queues in these two branches and asked, ‘Doesn’t HSBC take into account the knock-on effect of closure on the surrounding areas and businesses as well as the two towns themselves?After HSBC announced the closure of their Ewloe and Caergwrle branches last year, I wrote to them and met them again, emphasising that, although HSBC again blamed a rise in telephone and internet banking, concerns had once again been raised by constituents regarding the impact this would have on them and their communities. I also emphasised, yes, the access to banking protocol, which came into effect in May 2015 to help minimise the impact of bank branch closures on customers and local communities, requiring a pre-closure assessment of the impact of any proposed closure on the wider community, including businesses, outlined consultation and community engagement requirements, and ensuring continuing provision of alternative ways to bank.In their response, they said that they had adhered to the protocol, were discussing alternative solutions with customers, and that decisions to close followed a full study of customer activity at each branch, increased customer use of digital banking, and the proximity of the nearest post office where their customers can access their services.I received a similar response from NatWest after they announced the closure of their Holywell branch, which also noted they would introduce a mobile branch every Wednesday. Earlier this month, I raised HSBC’s further planned closures in Holywell, Holyhead and Llanrwst, and Yorkshire Building Society’s planned closures in Abergele, Prestatyn and Llangefni, here with the First Minister. The fact that this is also affecting mutual building societies, however, emphasises that this is about wider considerations than private profit.Our amendment 2 calls on the Welsh Government to examine the not-for-profit community banking model developed in Wales by Responsible Finance, working with credit unions where credit unions can’t, raising capital from other social enterprises, businesses, local authorities and town councils, and providing finance and support for people, businesses, and social enterprises that cannot access finance from high street banks.They’re working with others, including the Welsh Local Government Association, Cartrefi Cymru and the Wales Co-operative Centre, to develop a public bank model, but are currently receiving no support from the Welsh Government. They’re concerned that the Welsh Government’s development bank could end up competing with them at higher cost when there’s a compelling business case for the Welsh Government to support them with very limited funds. They state that £100,000 of Welsh Government funding, for example, would enable £3 million of lending, and that they can deliver jobs for £4,000 that would cost the Welsh Government model £35,000 each. So, let’s not reinvent the wheel: let’s go with the model that’s already developing in the third sector in Wales.Our amendment 3 welcomes the independent ‘Access to Banking Protocol—One Year on Review’ by Professor Russel Griggs OBE, published in November 2016. Its recommendations include making branch closure impact assessments more specific and personal to the area and early bank engagement with customers. Our amendment 4 welcomes the new Post Office partnership agreement with UK banks, which brings together the Post Office’s existing arrangements with individual banks into a single set of services available to customers of virtually all UK banks. This simplified service will allow personal and business customers to withdraw cash, deposit cash and cheques, and make balance enquiries at Post Office branches, but crucially also help post offices’ presence on our high streets—or help protect post offices’ presence on our high streets, something people here have often called for. I therefore urge you to support our amendments, although Welsh Conservatives will support whichever final motion we arrive at in order to send a strong and consistent message.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I will start by making reference to what Adam mentioned in his opening speech, and that’s the fact that the largest banks tend to close banks in disproportionate numbers in our poorest areas—those with the lowest incomes—while opening branches in some of the best-off areas. Reuters research shows that more than 90 per cent of the banks that closed between April 2015 and April 2016 closed in areas that had a median household income below the UK average, whilst, at the same time, during the same period, five of the eight branches that opened opened in London, in Chelsea, Canary Wharf, St Paul’s, and so on, in the most prosperous areas. Indeed, the large banks are three times as likely to close banks in Wales as they are in the south-east of England, if you look at the population size. So it’s about time that we looked at alternative arrangements and means of responding positively to the situation. One does get the impression that there is some sort of stampede now amongst the banks to not be the last bank to close in a town, because they know how much more difficult it will be for them to close in those circumstances. We’ve all heard the banks saying—and I heard it about Corwen a few years ago—’Well, don’t worry, you can take your services to Llangollen, just a few miles down the road’. The following year, Llangollen closed down—the Cabinet Secretary is more than aware of this; it’s in his constituency. Llangollen closes, there’s talk of Ruabon and Chirk, of course—now, Wrexham. The same thing happened in Betws-y-Coed: closure in Betws-y-Coed—’Go to Llanrwst’. Llanrwst is closing, so you now have to go to Llandudno. The services are going further and further away from the population and that is not acceptable. It appears that after HSBC in Llanrwst closes—and we haven’t given up yet on that, but when it does close, if the bank gets its way—there will be over 2,000 square miles of my region of north Wales without a branch or a bank. It’s this desert that Adam Price referred to in terms of banking services: a journey of 50 miles in total to access bank services. We know, of course, it’s older people who are most reliant on bank branches, and they are also the ones most reliant, very often, on public transport, which in and of itself creates all sorts of difficulties, and those, of course, who are least likely to be using online banking or telephone banking services. And we know about the quality of those services in certain areas of Wales—they’re among the worst in Britain. I do feel that we should be asking some of these banks, ‘If you are serious about insisting that people access your services online or via mobile phones, shouldn’t you be creating a fund and contributing towards ensuring that the infrastructure is in place, so that your customers can access your services?’ Llanrwst Town Council, for example, has called on HSBC to delay the closure of the branch until each and every one of its customers in that area can get access from their homes to the internet and to a mobile phone signal.Now, we’ve also heard about the impact on small businesses, and it’s a significant impact. The HSBC branch in Cerrigydrudion was closed; there’s no bank there. I know of at least one business that has to close for half a day in order to go to bank their takings elsewhere and come back, and that is a concern. Services for businesses aren’t often available in many of these branches. If you want to speak to a business consultant in north Wales, you have to go to Llandudno or to Bangor, and the banks complain that the footfall is down in their branches. Well, there’s no surprise there, when they themselves are centralising some of these services. These branches, we mustn’t forget, are still generating an income. They’re not running at a loss—it’s just clear that they’re not making enough of a profit for many of these banks. We’ve heard about the impact of branch closures on borrowing in banks, too. And the banks are more than financial institutions, of course. They are part of the community infrastructure, they are cornerstones of our high streets and they are iconic buildings, very often, on our high streets. They are historic buildings, and, when those are left vacant, well, the high street is depleted and they become eyesores. In an area such as Rhuthin, where NatWest has announced that they’re to close, NatWest, of course, is in the old courthouse building on the town square, the most iconic building in the town—a building built in the fifteenth century in the years after Owain Glyndŵr ransacked the town. You can still see the remains of the old gallows last used in 1679 there. And so what kind of mark will that leave on the high street in Rhuthin if that building falls into disrepair and is unused?There have been calls for a duty to transfer some of these important buildings into public use, perhaps at a lower rent. There’s a great deal more that I feel we can do, but what’s important is that it is up to us to create an alternative future when it comes to banking. A public bank for Wales would certainly be part of the solution, but I think there’s a great deal more that we can do to put pressure on the banks to contribute in other ways in order to ensure that the fact that they are leaving some of these communities doesn’t leave problems in its wake.

David J Rowlands AC: UKIP broadly supports the motion and welcomes the opportunity to take part in this debate. Whilst we recognise the excellent work done by the credit unions and Plaid’s desire to see the remit expanded, we’re not too sure about the aspiration to a Welsh people’s bank, which sounds far too much like an institution from North Korea. But we do acknowledge that it is desirable for there to be an alternative to the monopoly of the commercial banks, especially as, as has been said before, they’re disappearing at an alarming rate from our high streets. It is hoped that credit unions will play an increasing role in filling the gap in loans to the general public and hopefully replace pay-day loans, which prey on the most vulnerable in our society.We also recognise the financial gap that exists between the credit facilities offered by commercial banks and those that are required by business, especially in the higher risk sector of business start-ups, microbusinesses, and SMEs. We acknowledge the Welsh Government’s efforts in establishing such institutions as Finance Wales to try to bridge this gap, but feel that Wales must now move forward to a more recognisable banking model. It is true that the development bank of Wales is a step in this direction, but its very name is more redolent of an institution involved in large-scale economic projects rather than one that exists to lend to individuals and the business sector mentioned earlier. In other words, the bank’s remit should be explicit in its name and, therefore, perhaps the people’s bank of Wales wasn’t such a bad suggestion after all. [Laughter.] It is also critical that the services—[Interruption.] It is also critical that the services the bank offers are not fragmented. It needs to be a one-stop shop that will cater for all sections of the business sector, albeit with different levels of engagement. Keeping all lending functions and bands under one roof avoids confusion as to the relevant lender for those seeking access to funds. The application for funding must be as simple and straightforward as possible. The current model of multiple agencies is confusing to would-be applicants and this often discourages their engagement. It is true that the Welsh Government has invested in a number of enterprises that did not perform as had been anticipated. But, as someone who spent 40 years in the private business sector, I know that there is risk in every business venture. I would urge the Welsh Government not to be discouraged by these unavoidable setbacks, especially as their lending is often to the high-risk sector. Readily available finance is the most vital ingredient in our efforts to expand the Welsh economy. The Welsh Government must be at the forefront of this provision. We shall be supporting the motion. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: It’s quite clear that there is a pattern developing, and several Members have referred to it already—this pattern of centralising in a number of regional hubs, and what’s happening on Anglesey is an excellent example of this. On Anglesey, with the exception of Holy Island, it’s only in Llangefni that there will be any full-time bank open at all. Barclays is open part-time in Amlwch, but Holyhead, as the main populated area of Anglesey, has also heard recently that they will be losing their HSBC branch. So, there’s a pattern developing here. The announcements that we’ve heard recently are: closing NatWest in Amlwch, in Holyhead, in Beaumaris and in Menai Bridge, and HSBC going in Holyhead, in Amlwch, in Menai Bridge and Beaumaris recently. It’s not just the banks either, but financial institutions more widely—Yorkshire Building Society in Llangefni is also going to close. If I give attention to Beaumaris for a moment, in the same way that we heard from Llyr Gruffydd about services being sucked away, when the announcement was made by NatWest and HSBC about closing in Beaumaris: ‘Don’t worry—Menai Bridge is only four miles away.’ But now we’ve heard that the branches in Menai Bridge are also closing. The reason we hear is that there’s more banking happening online; of course, that is factually accurate. There are lots of services available in the post office, we hear; of course that’s also true. But with all respect to post offices that are offering more and more services for paying in and withdrawing funds, the advice, the additional services and the support available through branches is not available. That’s the kind of support that the most vulnerable people do require. I don’t expect to see a return to the days where every small town has every branch of bank, but it’s important to ensure that there are basic financial services available to all within a sensible distance. With regard to the consultations taking place, I have a letter from NatWest here about the closure of the Menai Bridge branch saying that there are five ATMs within a mile of the branch, so what does it matter that that particular ATM will be lost? Well, what I pointed out to NatWest was that four of those are on the mainland—one of them in Ysbyty Gwynedd and one of them in Coleg Menai; that is, misleading people by giving the impression that alternative services are available. There aren’t; there’s only one available in Menai Bridge, as it happens, and that itself isn’t in the town centre. Rwy’n meddwl bod yna nifer o atebion, neu ymatebion efallai, y gallwn edrych arnynt. Rwy’n credu y dylem geisio rhoi’r cyfrifoldeb ar y sector bancio a chyllid i ddarparu lefel ofynnol o fynediad. Fel y dywedais, nid yw hynny’n fater o ddweud, ‘Gadewch i ni gael pob cangen ar agor ym mhob tref’ fel yr oedd flynyddoedd yn ôl, ond yn hytrach ei gwneud yn ddyletswydd ar y sector i sicrhau bod yna o leiaf lefel addas o fynediad. Mae Plaid Cymru yn Senedd y DU wedi gofyn i’r Llywodraeth gyflwyno statws ‘banc olaf yn y dref’ fel rhan o ddeddfwriaeth Cymdeithas Bancwyr Prydain. [Torri ar draws.] Dof atoch mewn eiliad. Ac yma, wrth gwrs, rwy’n rhybuddio na allwn gael ras gan y banciau i wneud yn siŵr nad hwy yw’r banc olaf yn y dref.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thanks for giving way. You can tell I haven’t got my name in for this debate, so I’ve got to do it this way. I totally agree with your last point that this doesn’t mean going back to the old model of having a local branch everywhere, but do you agree with me—I assume you do agree—that the new bank, whatever form it takes, does need to have a strong local presence, whether that’s virtual, internet or whatever form it may be? It’s important that people know where it is, and that it’s not in some—I was going to say ‘smoky’, but that’s wrong expression, now, isn’t it—some dark corridor somewhere.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: That access is vital, and we’ve already heard suggestions about how there could be shared facilities, perhaps including the current established financial sector, plus also the exciting prospect such as a Welsh people’s bank that could give us an exciting way forward, responding to a necessary situation. This is a crisis that we are facing of the haemorrhaging of our financial institutions. This isn’t a pipe dream. When we look at the North Dakota bank and see that it is a hugely profitable bank, able to pump money back into infrastructure projects in North Dakota, where the Government deposits its finances with that bank in order to ensure that there is a continuous flow of money, these are exciting prospects that I believe we can’t afford to ignore. Necessity is the mother of invention, they say. We know what is necessary; we need to make sure that we stand up to the haemorrhaging of financial institutions. We cannot continue to let that haemorrhaging go unchallenged.

Darren Millar AC: I’m grateful for the opportunity to take part in this debate. I just want to make a brief contribution, because lots of points have already been made about the banking sector and the need to better serve its customers. There are three banks that are currently threatened with closure in my own constituency at the moment, two of them in a single town in Abergele, which also saw a bank close just a couple of years ago in the NatWest. Now it’s the HSBC that have announced that they’re intending to close a branch, and the Yorkshire Building Society. So, it’s obviously not just about profits if a building society is planning to close. But I have, on behalf of my constituents, obviously, met with the organisations concerned and expressed my very strong objections to their plans. What really concerns me is that those particular banking organisations didn’t appear to have let their staff know before the announcement was made to the media and in the public domain, which I think is a great disservice to the hardworking members of staff in those particular branches. In terms of the HSBC, they’re going to leave a huge vacant building on the high street in a very prominent location, which was actually the old Abergele Urban District Council building, and I think it’s incumbent upon them to ensure that they look at potential alternative uses for that particular building and work with the community, if they are going to close the branch, to ensure that that building is put to good use and for a community use in a way that it is still a civic asset, as it were.In addition, the Yorkshire Building Society have told me that the footfall in their branch has diminished significantly in recent years. They did only three mortgages over the last 12 months, so I think it’s also incumbent upon customers of the banks to make use of these resources when they are available on the high streets, because, frankly, I can understand the point of that particular branch saying it’s just not viable for us to be able to have a presence here in the town in the way that we traditionally have. Now, in fairness to the Yorkshire Building Society, they are looking at the opportunities to develop an agency sort of counter service with local solicitors or in another appropriate place in the town, and I think that that is something that we ought to encourage more of, even in places where there is no branch at the moment, from a bank that might be able to develop a presence in a town or location.Llyr Huws Gruffydd mentioned the NatWest bank in Ruthin, which is in a very prominent and very historic building in the town—one of the finest timber-frame buildings, I would say, in the country. The Cabinet Secretary will know that I’ve written to him asking whether Cadw, or somebody else, might be able to step in in order to safeguard the future of that building. I think it is important that—. It’s had a long history of public service as a building, whether as a bank, as a courthouse with the gallows outside, or in other ways, and I think that to vacate some of these places with relatively short notice is very irresponsible of the banks involved. Now, in fairness to NatWest, they’re trying, again, to maintain a sort of presence in the community through offering other mobile services, but frankly, it’s not the same, and they really are letting their customers down. So, I think, Cabinet Secretary, what I’m really looking for when you’re responding to this debate is not just sympathy. It’s not just to say that you’ve made representations to the UK Government either, but it’s to see what we can do creatively in Wales in order to expand the presence of banking services across the country so that people can have them in an accessible way. We’ve heard a lot about the way that the post offices are picking up, if you like, a lot of the mess that the banks are leaving behind when they exit some of our communities, and that’s great—it’s good business, no doubt, in terms of transactional business for those post offices. But they are a different beast, post offices. Some people want to share things privately in a bank in a way that they can’t necessarily do in a post office location at a counter that’s full of people waiting to collect their pensions or whatever else they might be in the post office to do. So, I think some sort of approach here where there could be a national people’s bank is a good way forward. If that can deliver some profits back to the taxpayer here in Wales, then I think that’s another huge benefit that we could possibly derive. I think that when we’re talking about the sort of investment that could be coming down the pipeline in terms of capital investment projects as a result of some of the dividend from the last autumn statement, then there’s a slab of cash there that might usefully be used in order to act as capital for a bank to lend in order to make a return for the taxpayer. I wonder whether you could just comment a little bit about how that might develop, whether that might be a partnership with other banks or whether it might be a stand-alone thing that the Government itself takes forward. Thank you.

Simon Thomas AC: I think, given the position that we’re in, that this has been a very measured debate. The banks, at present, are depriving many communities and many individuals of important services, and it’s now not possible to be a full citizen unless you have full access to banking services. That’s what the modern world entails. If you don’t have access to a banking system, you will lose out greatly within the current economic structure. Bearing in mind the billions of pounds—some thousand billion pounds—invested in the banks over the past decade in order to save them from a situation that they themselves have created, to see now that they are turning their backs on the communities that paid to support and maintain the viability of those banks is very disappointing indeed.So, I would support any statutory efforts in terms of ensuring that the last branch is saved, or any other efforts, as we have seen with mobile phone companies, where you require people to use other equipment, because unless you do that, you will see everyone withdrawing from rural communities, specifically, and leaving a desert behind them. So, we do need a statutory approach.But there is something more positive in this debate too, when we’re talking about this concept of a people’s bank of Wales, which has been aired. I do think, when you consider the money flowing through Welsh banks, through the local authorities, through the health service and through the Welsh Government—money that’s being held in the main banks—well, there’s nothing stopping that being held in a separate Welsh people’s bank in order to generate revenue and capital that would be available, then, for investment and maintaining that kind of network. It’s very disappointing, in rural areas, that full consideration isn’t being given to the fact that broadband isn’t available to all; that not everyone can use digital means. But more importantly, it shouldn’t be possible to withdraw physical services—

Mike Hedges rose—

Simon Thomas AC: In just a second, I will, yes.[Continues.]—such as bank branches without an assurance that broadband should be available to everyone served by that branch. I will give way to Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you for taking an intervention. Would you also agree that there are a lot of people, especially amongst the elderly, who don’t want to do their banking online, don’t want to use a computer for doing their banking and want to go and visit their local bank?

Simon Thomas AC: I certainly do. I bought my mother an iPad for Christmas. I don’t know how she’s getting on with it. I think she’s Julie James’s constituent, not yours, now, Mike, but she’s in Swansea trying to make use of an iPad. However, she was very reliant on the bank to help her get a head start on some of the things that you can do now in digital. So, there’s a real commitment there, a community commitment, that needs to happen.Rwy’n cytuno’n llwyr â’r pwynt yna. Mae’n wir, i amlygu ar y pwynt yna, bod pobl yn defnyddio banciau llai ac yn llai. A dweud y gwir, nid ar-lein mae’r twf mwyaf, ond ar y ffôn, ar ffôn symudol—ar aps a phethau felly. Dyna lle mae’r twf mwyaf. Nawr, mae yna damaid bach o berig yn y datblygiad yma hefyd, achos mae’n golygu bod credyd hawdd ar gael heb, efallai, fod pobl yn trafod a oes ganddyn nhw anghenion credyd neu a ydyn nhw wir yn gallu fforddio talu’r credyd yma yn ôl? Pan fyddwch chi’n mynd i mewn i fanc—. Rwy’n cofio cael morgais am y tro cyntaf; roedd e fel mynd trwy ryw fath o lys barn a sefyll eich prawf gerbron rheolwr y banc. Erbyn hyn, rydych chi’n gallu ei wneud ar-lein, ac mae yna bobl yn cynnig penderfyniad morgais ymhen hanner awr neu awr. Nid wyf yn siŵr ai dyma’r math o ddiwylliant cyllidol a’r wybodaeth ynglŷn ag anghenion ariannol yr ydym yn moyn eu cyniwair gymaint â hynny yng Nghymru, ychwaith.Mae yna bethau penodol hefyd. Mae cau’r prif fanc yn y dref, yn enwedig tref farchnad—enghraifft ddiweddar yn fy rhanbarth i yw Porthmadog—yn cael effaith seicolegol ar y dref. Rydym eisoes wedi clywed am yr adeilad a pha mor bwysig y mae adeilad yn gallu bod, ond mae pobl yn teimlo eu bod nhw’n colli rhywbeth a oedd yn bwysig i’w cymuned nhw. Efallai fod yna ryw adlais yn y fan hon o’r dyddiau pan oedd y banciau yn fanciau lleol—eich Lloyds chi a TSB a Banc y Ddafad Ddu a phethau felly. Ond, erbyn hyn, mae pobl yn teimlo eu bod nhw’n colli rhywbeth sydd yn eithaf pwysig iddyn nhw. Mae busnesau bach, yn arbennig, yn teimlo hynny. Mae cadeirydd yr FSB, Janet Jones, wedi dweud y gwir—bod busnesau bach yn parchu perthynas nid gyda changen, ond gyda’r bobl yn y gangen, a gyda phobl sy’n rheoli cyfrifon.Just to conclude, Presiding Officer, the banks do owe us a little bit. We bailed them out 10 years ago. We allowed them to continue—we allowed them to continue with their rather rapacious way of retail and wholesale banking as well. They now have to pay some attention to the real democratic needs of our citizens. Access to banking services is an absolute fundamental right. It’s no longer a privilege; it is a right. You can’t be a full citizen unless you’ve got access to banking services. We have to work with banks, work with post offices and work with alternative models, but they have to work with us as well to ensure that we don’t denude our communities.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this important debate today and for the many contributions from Members across the Chamber? I’m very well aware of a number of the banks that have been mentioned today. Darren Millar and Llyr Huws Gruffydd both identified the Ruthin bank—the NatWest bank. I recall being told, not too long ago, when a NatWest bank in my constituency, in Brymbo, was closing, that, rest assured, Mold and Ruthin were safe. Now, we see Ruthin at threat. I will be warning my colleague, the Member for Delyn, that she should make representations direct to NatWest to get assurance that that branch is safe.As a Welsh Government, we too are deeply concerned at the negative impact that bank closures can have on local businesses and citizens. In many communities, banks, along with hairdressers, post offices, convenience stores and, indeed, pubs are the glue of our communities, and it is particularly the case in deprived and rural areas. Llyr Huws Gruffydd identified, through the data, the very fact that it is those communities that are hurting the most from the decision by high-street banks to close branches. The closure of local services can have a significant and detrimental impact on individuals, on businesses and, indeed, on whole communities. Although the regulation of the banking industry is a non-devolved area, and decisions on branch closures are entirely commercial matters for the banks, we are keen to use all of the levers at our disposal to ensure that businesses and individuals across Wales have access to high-quality banking facilities, including cash deposit and collection facilities. We want to help mitigate the loss of any branch and cashpoint facility in Wales where it is possible. Perhaps my constituency is a prime example of the severe loss of branches. I now have, even though I represent the largest of all Labour constituencies, just one branch left in the constituency of Clwyd South.

Darren Millar rose—

Ken Skates AC: Yes, indeed.

Darren Millar AC: I’m grateful to you for taking an intervention. Would you agree with me that what we actually need is some sort of universal service obligation where nobody lives above a certain distance from their local branch? We’ve got a similar sort of arrangement with post offices. You know, there are universal service obligations for some utility companies. Isn’t this one of those essential services that everybody ought to be able to have access to?

Ken Skates AC: I would agree with the Member that everybody should be able to access a bank within a certain distance. This is something that we called on the UK Government to examine very carefully. I’ll come to the Griggs review shortly, but I think the Member is right in his assertion. Financial innovation and trends in society have clearly led to many branch closures. Many Members today have spoken of the huge strides that have taken place in terms of emerging digital technology. Of course, the financial crisis back in 2008 resulted in a number of branches closing due to banks consolidating and merging.The British Bankers’ Association estimate that as a consequence of changes to digital technology and new applications, and bank mergers, the number of people going into branches fell by around 30 per cent between 2012 and 2015—a remarkable fall in such a short space of time. In terms of paying in money and making withdrawals over the counter, I think it is important to remember that 95 per cent of all banking customers can access their bank accounts via the Post Office. This is particularly important in areas where banks have closed. Although Post Office matters are, of course, a non-devolved matter, we are keen to support post offices across Wales. In January, it was announced that the Post Office had signed an agreement to provide nearly all of the large banks’ personal customers and 75 per cent of its small business clients with some face-to-face services, such as depositing cash and cheques and reviewing bank balances. Now, before that announcement, various banks offered more limited access through the Post Office, covering just 40 per cent of business customers. The new deal includes the established high-street banks and some of the challengers, such as TSB and Virgin Money. Although I realise that post offices can’t replace bank branches, this development is welcome, and I will continue to encourage banks and the Post Office to do all they can to ensure our communities and businesses benefit from this initiative. Turning to the Griggs review, it made a number of recommendations to improve the way the banks engage with those communities facing branch closures. It includes working with small business customers to see how they can further mitigate the challenge of cash deposit and collection that closures bring to some of them. The recommendations also included the need for better engagement and communication between the banks and their customers, and to carry out meaningful, genuine consultation if a branch faces closure. This is something I have raised with Barclays and HSBC over the past few months, encouraging them to implement Professor Griggs’s recommendations and to work closely with the Post Office to ensure our communities and businesses benefit from these initiatives. I know that the First Minister discussed these matters with the CEO of RBS just recently as well.Promoting financial inclusion is a key priority for the Welsh Government during the fifth Assembly. The 2016 financial inclusion strategy sets out how we aspire to work with partner organisations in Wales and at a UK level to improve access to affordable credit and financial services. The financial inclusion delivery plan was published in December, and it sets out the actions and measures required to increase financial inclusion across the country. The actions and financial implications of the plan are not only for Welsh Government. It aligns with the actions contained within related strategies, including the financial capability strategy for Wales, the Wales credit union strategy, and the information and advice action plan, to reflect the strategic approach being taken. So, I am pleased to respond to this debate today. Members have spoken of the importance of credit unions, and there is no doubt that they can and should grow stronger, potentially through strategic mergers. With regard to the suggestion from Plaid—a people’s bank—discussion has already taken place with the PPIW to assess such a concept. That work should be undertaken with due regard to the creation of the development bank for Wales, which Members have spoken of, as well as new and emerging digital technologies, the potential of credit unions, and new financial institutions, such as Chetwood, which I was delighted to announce is moving to north Wales from London just last week. As I say, I am pleased to be able to respond to this debate today and to assure Members—

Adam Price AC: Will the Cabinet Secretary give way?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, of course.

Adam Price AC: I was very pleased to hear this announcement about the PPIW report. When does he expect that report to be concluded, and will it be published, and can we have a statement for the Assembly?

Ken Skates AC: I believe that PPIW reports are normally published with access for Assembly Members, and certainly for Government Ministers, and the work will be undertaken, I believe, during the autumn, once early lessons from the operation of the development bank can be assessed. I think it will be an important and timely piece of work, but, as I say, it will need to take into account not only the development bank of Wales, but also the potential of credit unions, indeed, the additional services that are being rolled out by the Post Office, and new financial institutions. And I think that commitment demonstrates as well that we are exploring a range of options and interventions. Traditional bank branches might be reducing in number, but the need for accessible banking services, certainly, is not, and that’s why we are committed to supporting post offices, credit unions, new financial institutions, a development bank of Wales, and any other novel intervention at our disposal.

I call on Adam Price to respond to the debate.

Adam Price AC: Well, I was starting to be concerned that motions in this place didn’t have any effect at all, but I’m very pleased to hear at least that we are going to have an inquiry into this idea of alternative models and creating new institutions, including the possibility of a form of public bank or people’s bank—whatever you want to call it, the same principle applies. I’m sure that Members across the Chamber will look forward very much to seeing the result of that inquiry.I very much welcome what the Cabinet Secretary said, despite the fact that banking regulation hasn’t been devolved. It does therefore restrict what we can do here, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to use every lever available to us, because that is our responsibility here. As Darren Millar said, we should be thinking creatively. The analysis of the problem in this case is divided, to a great extent, across the Chamber, on the basis of the contributions that we’ve heard, and on the basis of the experiences that we’ve all faced as Members. So, the response is to think innovatively and creatively and ambitiously. So, I welcome very much the Cabinet Secretary’s commitment to doing what the motion sought from the Welsh Government, which is to ask the question: could we create a new banking model for Wales that is better than what is already on offer?Mark Isherwood, of course—

Mark Isherwood AC: Will you take an intervention?

Adam Price AC: Of course.

Mark Isherwood AC: Sorry, you may be about to answer my question, but do you welcome the fact that the four non-profit community banks in Responsible Finance are already working with the Welsh Local Government Association, Cartrefi Cymru, the Wales Co-operative Centre and others to develop the very sort of model that you’re proposing?

Adam Price AC: Yes, certainly, and a number of those organisations are members of the new group that is considering a public bank for Wales. I’m also aware of the work of Robert Owen Community Banking and so on. So, yes, what we want, of course, is more variety in the financial sector and to build on what already exists, including credit unions, where they have a very important role, and we want to see how we can strengthen that role, as well.I welcomed the comments made by David Rowlands. He changed his opinion about the name, but we’ll set the name aside for now; that, of course, isn’t the predominant theme of today’s debate, but it’s the purpose. And he’s right, of course—In thinking about the problems faced by small businesses, working capital, very often, is part of the problem. What we need, therefore, is a bank that can take deposits and that can move quickly on these issues, and so on. So, I think that’s what the majority of small businesses are hoping to see with the development bank. So, this is an opportunity, now, with the study that has been announced, to look at that wider question.A number of my fellow Members here today have talked about the different dimensions of the crisis that we’re facing. And it is a crisis, and it’s only going to get worse, so why don’t we move ahead of that crisis and make plans ahead of time about the kind of innovative alternative model that is clear from the contributions that we’ve heard today, and which does have wide-ranging support across the parties—this idea of not just having a development bank in a narrower sense, but a public bank for Wales that can fulfil the needs of all aspects of life in Wales, individuals and businesses, that are at present disenfranchised by the mainstream banks in the private sector?

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Urgent Question: Tata

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

I have accepted an urgent question under Standing Order 12.66 and I call on David Rees to ask the urgent question. David Rees.

David Rees AC: Following today’s announcement on the steel ballot by the Tata workforce, will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on what discussions he has had to ensure the commitment to the investment in steel making at Port Talbot is secured? EAQ(5)0122(EI)

Ken Skates AC: We welcome this afternoon’s announcement by the steel trade unions that their members have voted in favour of Tata Steel’s proposals to secure the future for its UK operations. This announcement is a significant step forward in securing a sustainable future for the UK businesses.

David Rees AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer, though I need to expand a bit on my original question. But I’m sure he appreciates that, since January last year, there have been some very dark skies over Port Talbot and the steelworks there, the local community and the local economy. We’ll now seeing, perhaps, after this ballot, the lifting of those dark skies and greater certainty over the medium term starting to be visible. Now, steelworkers have given Tata an opportunity to rebuild the confidence that they have lost, or at best strained, over the recent months, and I hope that Tata take that opportunity and deliver on the promised investment as soon as possible, along with the other points in the proposals, including equality and parity with plants across the EU for their workforce. Now, workers have made sacrifices to put the priority of the industry at the fore and I hope that, perhaps, the Welsh Government will lead on ensuring that those priorities and the interests of steelworkers are at the fore. Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure you agree that that needs to be across all parties, not just the Welsh Government, but the UK Government and Tata itself. Can I put on record my recognition of the hard work and commitment by the trade unions, who have made some very difficult decisions during this time in the interests of their members and of the industry? But Cabinet Secretary, today’s ballot result is only a step on the path to a long-term sustainable future here in Wales and across the UK, and we still have far to go as a consequence of that. So, can I ask the following of you: what discussions have you had with Tata on their investment plans and the timescales associated with those plans? And have you received any assurances from them in relation to delivering their commitments on that proposal? How quickly can you as a Welsh Government be in a position to actually support investment? I know you’ve already committed £12 million, but how quickly can you commit other funding to other aspects, whether it be for research, for plant, training or other areas that help the industry? The spectre of the ThyssenKrupp joint venture still hangs over the whole industry and existed throughout the ballot. It hasn’t gone away; it’s still there. So, what discussions have you had with Tata regarding the implications for such a joint venture, particularly for the Welsh steel industry and the workforce? Have you had discussions with the UK Government, because the levers for many of the issues now faced in the steel industry are with them? What discussions have you had with the UK Government on their actions, because to date, to be blunt, I have seen very little action from the UK Government, to ensure that they now play their part in making the steel industry here in Wales a secure steel industry, one that is fit for the future and one that will continue to deliver? The workforce have done their job. They’ve committed the last four months. They’ve delivered production levels beyond the highest levels. They have actually even supported this ballot at a cost to themselves. Surely, your discussions should be telling the UK Government to stand up and take action. We want that action. Steelworkers want that action. Can you tell me what they’re doing?

Ken Skates AC: I think it’s important to recognise the enormous step the workers have taken in voting the way that they have and I’d like to pay tribute to the employees of Tata in Wales and also to the trade unions who have conducted themselves on behalf of the workers over many, many months in the best possible way imaginable. It has been an incredibly difficult time. This is the latest, albeit very welcome step, just the latest step in what has been a very long campaign to make the steel sector more sustainable for the future. But it’s been a campaign that Welsh Government has led, of that there is no doubt. We’ve done our part in offering a package of £60 million with conditions attached. Trade unions have done their bit, and today we’ve heard that workers have made a sacrifice also in order to do their bit and to make the sector more sustainable to make it more competitive to give it a future.We now expect Tata to make good on its part of the deal with workers, but we also now expect the UK Government to take action. I’ve already spoken with the Secretary of State for Wales and I will also be writing to the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to convey again my desire to see the UK industrial strategy demonstrate a more muscular interventionist approach to steel. We can only wish for some of the levers that they have at their disposal. They have those levers. We expect them now to use them. We expect them to use the industrial strategy to support the steel industry. We expect them to take action in terms of research and development. We expect them to take action in terms of high-energy cost, not just for steel but all energy-intensive operations. In terms of the time frame that the Member raised—discussions have taken place with both myself and the First Minister; we regularly meet with the most senior officials from Tata—we expect, as I say, the promise, the pledge, the deal that Tata have offered to be delivered at the earliest opportunity. We certainly will be able now to expedite some of the proposals that have been put to Tata as part of the £60 million package. So, I hope to be able to bring forward announcements as soon as possible on further capital support for sites and also projects that will improve energy efficiency.In terms of discussions with ThyssenKrupp, this is a commercial matter for Tata, but the conditions that we apply to the support that we’re offering will remain, whatever the future brings. I have also requested meetings with ThyssenKrupp to gain assurance from them about the Welsh skills sector if the joint venture were to go through.I’m firmly of the belief that the steel industry in Wales has a very bright future, provided we get the investment and the interventions at a UK level that are required and that we’ve called for for many, many months. I do believe that, over the next five years, with the £1 billion investment that we expect Tata now to deliver, that the industry, with our support, will become more competitive, that it will modernise, that it will become more sustainable, and that there will be a long-term future for steel in Wales.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Today, obviously, as has been said, we’ve had the consultative result of the ballot. It’s clear that, despite what was a stark choice for the Tata workforce, one that was a choice between pensions and future investment in the plant, they’ve decided to keep their faith in Tata Steel. But would you agree with me that now it is time for Tata Steel to step up their side of the deal in relation to investment?We shouldn’t be under any illusion at the moment that we can put this issue to rest, I think. On pensions, for example, I understand that Tata are currently in talks with the trustees and the pensions regulator as they say they can’t afford to continue sponsoring the scheme, as we all know. They want to walk away from the scheme as is and it could still go into the pension protection fund. The regulator at the moment won’t allow for that to happen as Tata are actually making a profit, but the regulator is already looking at this issue and it could take another year for this to be rectified, I am told.So, the proposals that the workers were balloted on are conditional on a sustainable solution for the British Steel pension scheme. So, with that in mind, and with that conditionality in mind, if Tata are not allowed to walk away from their pension obligations by the pensions regulator, or negotiations take longer, what do you understand happens to these particular proposals? Do they still go ahead even though Tata haven’t got a sustainable solution to the scheme? What discussions have you had personally with the pensions regulator and Tata on this?What actions will you take immediately to make it clear to Tata that, as a Government, you expect them to reciprocate the faith that has been placed in them by the workforce ballot today? Are you going to now step up as a Government and honour the commitments you made to the workforce before the ballot, including action, as was mentioned earlier, on funding for a local power plant and more investment into the steel research and development centre? I think it’s vitally important for steel to be a priority and not a low priority grade, as we’ve seen from the UK Government’s leaked document last week in relation to it being downgraded as a priority, and I’d be interested to hear views from the Conservatives here today as to why they think that it has been downgraded as a priority. I think what everybody wants in this room is to see a sustainable future, but I don’t think we should be under any pretence that this is the end of the discussion here today. Despite the vote, Tata may not be in a position to change the pensions, and therefore the investment may not follow. And I think that is what people need to have assurances on and need to have leadership from you and the UK Government and Tata on taking this issue forward now.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for her questions and contribution, but I do take issue with the demand that we, Welsh Government, should show leadership now and step up to invest in the sector? In December, we announced the first package of support that was being invested in our sites. That included £4 million investment in skills development—not just at one site, but at every single site across our country. It included £8 million towards an £18 million investment in the power plant at Port Talbot to reduce energy costs and cut carbon emissions. And now, as I said, we are ready to take forward a series of other measures that will improve energy efficiency at Welsh sites, we’re looking at a capital expenditure programme at Shotton, and also improvements to the galvanising line at Port Talbot. Today’s decision has meant that we can expedite that work and give workers the confidence that they will be operating in modern facilities that are competitive. In terms of Tata itself and the confidence that needs to be built amongst its workforce, there is, of course, a need now for Tata to demonstrate its loyalty to Wales, to the workers who have shown such loyalty to the sector in voting the way that they have, and they offered a deal concerning pensions that they assured workers would be sustainable. It’s now for them to prove it and to deliver it, but it’s also for them to deliver the investment that we are working in partnership with them on.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, thank you for giving your answers to the urgent questions so far, and could I join you in commending the workforce for the way they’ve resolutely—[Interruption.] I don’t know what the sniggering is, but at the end of the day, I think the workforce have stood up and put their point over and actually endorsed the ballot today, with over 70 per cent in all three categories, I think, from the various unions endorsing this, with over 70 per cent turnout as well in this ballot, which is a resounding commitment from the workforce. What is important, now, that we hear from, obviously, Tata, is how they are going to bring forward the investment that they’ve talked of, and you highlighted in your earlier answers that you and the First Minister are in constant dialogue with senior directors of Tata Steel, so could you indicate how that pipeline of investment will now come on-stream, given that, I think, the figures are commented on are £1 billion over 10 years? Is that £1 billion front-ended, so that we will see a considerable chunk of that investment in the early years of that 10-year period, or is it going to be more towards the mid to long-term future when we’re looking at the 10-year period of investment we’re talking of?And secondly, the merger talks are continuing and ongoing; are the assurances around no compulsory redundancies caveated with the fact that Tata need to be remaining in control of the plants and, if a merger was to take place, then the assurances around compulsory redundancies would not be placed on the successor company if—if—a merger were to take place? We are all pleased with the situation we find ourselves in today, given where we found ourselves 12 months ago and, indeed, through the Assembly election campaign, where all parties worked together on this and the community as a whole worked together on this, and the productivity of those discussions, those negotiations, have borne fruit today. There is still much work to do, and I will work with colleagues both in Westminster and in this institution, along with other Welsh Conservatives here, to make sure that there is delivery around high energy prices, but above all, make sure that investment is made in these plants to secure steel as a primary industry. But I do hope that, rather than reverting to the trench warfare of the politics of this, we can continue working together to make sure that the steel voices are heard and that decisions are made in the best interests of securing the long-term future of the steel industry here in Wales and in the UK. Let’s not forget that one of the key numbers that have helped this commitment to come forward is the depreciation in the pound, which has made steel-making profitable again in many of the plants the length and breadth of this country.

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to thank the Member for his contribution. I will just point out that the fall in the value of the pound has actually impacted adversely on raw materials that have to be imported so, actually, the benefits are not as you would imagine. But I do welcome the collegiate approach from the leader of the opposition on this issue, and what he said about the need to avoid trench warfare. In order to maintain this, I think it might be worth the Conservatives recognising the incredible role that Welsh Government has played in ensuring that steel has a sustainable future. And another important role—and I look forward to working with opposition Members on this—is to ensure that the UK Government now delivers for steel in Wales and, in particular, I am intrigued by the potential of a steel deal as part of the UK industrial strategy. I very much hope that that will be delivered as soon as possible, and will have considerable benefits for Wales. There is, of course, a £2 billion research, development and innovation fund that’s been announced and, again, I would hope that all Members will be able to work together to secure as much of that investment as possible for Welsh steel. There are four key elements to the proposal, and the Member highlighted a number of them—first of all, the investment component: the 10-year plan to invest £1 billion to support steel making at Port Talbot and secure the future of the downstream sites. Now, we will be having discussions with Tata about the time frame and the expected investment over the next 10 years, but it would be our expectations that they ensure that the facility becomes more competitive at the earliest possible point. Port Talbot is already turning a corner at great speed, thanks to the bridge—the programme that has been introduced by local management, and that has been supported by employees and the unions. Together, they’ve formed a formidable partnership. It’s a partnership that’s seen the result that has been announced today, and we very much welcome it. In terms of the pledge for jobs to be secured, Tata, as part of the agreement, agreed to a pact equivalent to its agreement with steelworkers on the continent, which includes a commitment to seek to avoid any compulsory redundancies for five years. In terms of joint venture discussions, I’ve already made clear that the conditionality that we apply to our investment in Tata’s steel sites in Wales would continue to apply, regardless of future ownership. But for the next five years, what those conditions do is ensure that the steel sector in Wales, led by Tata, can continue to modernise, become more competitive and become more sustainable.

Lee Waters AC: Along with workers from my constituency in Trostre and in Port Talbot this afternoon, I breathed a very heavy sigh of relief at the ballot result, and it’s testimony to the commitment of the local management and the workers that, despite the grievances and misgivings they had about the way Tata has handled this over the last 12 months, they’re prepared to make a commitment to save jobs in their communities. And I think we should acknowledge that were it not for the financial inducements of the Welsh Government, there wouldn’t have been a deal for them to vote on in the first place. But I wonder if the Minister does share my unease at the events of the last year, and of the calls from the Chamber this afternoon to continue to pump large amounts of public money into a large multinational corporation on an ongoing basis? This makes us incredibly vulnerable to the whims of a boardroom in India and the changes of personality around that board table. We surely must be putting ourselves in a better long-term position that we make ourselves less vulnerable to these forces beyond our control, and we build up the resilience of our economy through local investment, local skills and local jobs. So, would he make sure in his economic strategy that we do have a plan, so that we don’t put ourselves in this position in the years to come?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his questions, and also for recognising that the deal is indeed only possible today because of the investment and the leadership shown by Welsh Government over the past year and more? In terms of the question of ownership that the Member raises, the key to a prosperous and secure future for those Tata Steel plants lies in them becoming highly competitive, up there with the world’s very best. That’s what our investment is about, that’s what our support is all about: we are investing in the people, in their skills. I’ve already reiterated the point today that we announced in December a £4 million package of support to develop those skills. We’re investing in the local plants and in local jobs.So, above all, what is essential is that we give the steel sector across Wales, regardless of who owns which sites and which facilities, we give it the best possible chance of being as competitive as possible.

Caroline Jones AC: Cabinet Secretary, the brave decision by the Tata workforce to accept the Tata deal will help secure the future of steel making in Wales. It is now up to both Governments, in Westminster and in Wales, to help ensure that demand for Welsh steel is increased. As discussed in the tidal lagoons debate here yesterday, Tidal Lagoon Power hope to source most of the steel from UK sources. However, there are concerns about this, given the fact that their major partners are a steel producer in France and Holland. What discussions have you had with the UK Government about ensuring that the tidal lagoon in Swansea uses only Welsh steel?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for her question? So, there are actually much wider implications for all industrial sectors, because procurement is a key issue in ensuring that the supply of Welsh steel is to a number of our major infrastructure projects coming up in the coming years. We need to ensure that there is demand for Welsh steel right across Wales, and across the UK. This is something that I put to the Secretary of State for BEIS, and, of course, I know that the Secretary for Finance and Local Government has been doing a considerable amount of work in looking at procurement rules, and ensuring that Welsh steel can be used wherever and whenever possible on infrastructure in our country. And I think that a case in point is, actually, the eastern bay link road where more than three quarters of the steel used that will remain in situ comes from Welsh steel plants.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I’d like to re-emphasise what my colleague for Aberavon has said and others this afternoon, that Tata must now honour their commitment and promises, and recognise the sacrifice the workforce has made, and step up to the plate and not walk away from their obligations. I’m also adding my voice to tributes to the dedication of the steel unions. I know first-hand how hard the reps work at my local site of Shotton, and I will continue to work closely with them going forward. Tata, I think, also need to adapt to better recognise the success at Shotton, which produces viable and innovative products in its own right. So, Cabinet Secretary, I can’t emphasise enough how successful and viable and profitable Shotton is, and I’d ask you to reaffirm your commitment to support an investment in the future of the site, and also working with UK Government to deliver on the steel sector support package.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Hannah Blythyn for her questions? Shotton, like all other sites in Wales, is vitally important to the Welsh steel family, and that’s why I am pleased to be able to take forward work now on the potential support for a major capital expenditure programme at Shotton steelworks. I would also like to say that the steel unions at the Shotton plant, along with steel union representatives at all of the other Welsh sites, have conducted themselves in an exemplary way and have shown incredible leadership over what has been an intensely difficult period of time.

John Griffiths AC: Cabinet Secretary, I think it is right today to recognise the commitment to the steel industry of the workforce, the trade unions, local management and Welsh Government, as other Members have stated. For me, of course, Llanwern is a real priority and a major concern, and, as with other steel plants, the workforce at Llanwern have shown great commitment over the years, constantly retraining, adapting to new systems, showing great flexibility and, it must be said, enduring successive cuts to jobs and production. But, we know that the steel industry is an industry with a real future in Wales, as well as a great history and past. So, as with Hannah Blythyn, I would like to plead the case for my local steelworks, indeed, as with Lee Waters and others. So, in addressing the future plans for investment, Cabinet Secretary, of Tata in Wales, will you make sure that Llanwern has a strong focus and a strong place in the discussions that you have? Particularly, of course, because, as Tata are very clear in saying, it is an integrated operation in Wales and all the component parts from Port Talbot, across the length and breadth of Wales, work together and operate in an integrated way. I think it’s clear that we have to ensure that all the component parts are a significant part of the discussions that take place and not overlooked in any way.

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to thank John Griffiths for his contribution and I agree entirely. I’d like to thank him for his consistent and passionate commitment to the plant in his constituency, as I’d like to thank all Members who represent areas that have steelworks within them. I do believe that we’ve only just scratched the surface of the potential of steel as a material. The amount of research and development and innovation that can and, I’m sure, will take place in the coming years will mean that the material plays a more significant role in the future than it does today. The aim for Welsh Government is to place Welsh steel at the very forefront of research and development and, for that reason, we’re not just looking to invest in R&D and innovation within Welsh steel and within the Tata facilities, we’re also looking to the UK Government to do likewise. So, I do expect, as I’ve said already, a very fair share of that chunk of £2 billion of research and development money to come here to Wales for the Welsh steelworks.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

9. 8. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to the vote. The first vote is on the Plaid Cymru debate on banking services. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions, 35 against. The motion is, therefore, not agreed.

Motion not agreed: For 16, Against 35, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6240.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I, therefore, call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, four abstentions, 18 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 29, Against 18, Abstain 4.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6240.Click to see vote results

Amendment 2 deselected.

I now call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, 10 abstentions, four against. Therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 37, Against 4, Abstain 10.

Result of the vote on amendment 3 to motion NDM6240.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 4, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 51, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 4 is agreed.

Amendment agreed: For 51, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 4 to motion NDM6240.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6240 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Recognises the importance of easily accessible financial advice and banking services to individuals and businesses in all communities in Wales.2. Regrets the closure of bank and building society branches in communities across Wales.3. Welcomes the work of the Welsh Government in promoting financial inclusion, including support for advice services and credit unions, and the ambitions set out in the 2016 Financial Inclusion Strategy for a well-functioning and comprehensive financial system in Wales.Recognises the need for the Welsh and UK Governments to work together with partners to improve access to affordable credit and financial services and information for individuals, including debt advice.Recognises the need to improve financial capability in Wales and notes the work being undertaken to establish the Development Bank of Wales and its intelligence unit which will better target financial services and advice for micro, small and medium sized businesses in Wales.5. Welcomes the independent ‘Access to Banking Protocol One Year on Review’ by Professor Russel Griggs OBE, published in November 2016.6. Welcomes the new Post Office Partnership agreement with UK Banks.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 51, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Motion NDM6240 as amended agreed: For 51, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6240 as amended.Click to see vote results

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

10. 9. Short Debate: Tackling Loneliness and Isolation in Wales, a Partnership Approach

We now move to the short debate, so, if you are leaving the Chamber, please do so quietly, quickly. I’m going to call on Caroline Jones to speak on the topic she has chosen. Caroline.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I have agreed to give a minute of my time to Joyce Watson, Janet Finch-Saunders and Mike Hedges.The following was written in 1966, and more eloquently highlights the topic of loneliness and isolation than any words that I could conjure.What do you see, nurses, what do you see? / What are you thinking, when looking at me? / A crabbit old woman, not very wise, / Uncertain of habit, with faraway eyes, / Who dribbles her food and makes no reply / When you say in a loud voice, “I do wish you’d try”. / Who seems not to notice the things that you do / And forever is losing a stocking or shoe. / Who, unresisting or not, lets you do as you will / With bathing and feeding the long day to fill. / Is that what you’re thinking, is that what you see? / Then open your eyes, nurse, you’re looking at me. / I’ll tell you who I am as I sit here so still! / As I rise at your bidding, as I eat at your will. / I’m a small child of 10 with a father and mother, / Brothers and sisters, who love one another, / A young girl of 16 with wings on her feet, / Dreaming that soon now a lover she’ll meet, / A bride soon at 20—my heart gives a leap, / Remembering the vows that I promised to keep. / At 25 now I have young of my own / Who need me to build a secure happy home; / A woman of 30, my young now grow fast, / Bound to each other with ties that should last; / At 40, my young sons have grown and are gone, / But my man’s beside me to see I don’t mourn; / At 50 once more babies play around my knee, / Again we know children, my loved one and me. / Dark days are upon me, my husband is dead, / I look at the future, I shudder with dread, / For my young are all rearing young of their own. / And I think of the years and the love that I’ve known; / I’m an old woman now and nature is cruel—/ ‘Tis her jest to make old age look like a fool. / The body is crumbled, grace and vigour depart, / There is now a stone where I once had a heart, / But inside this old carcass, a young girl still dwells, / And now and again my battered heart swells, / I remember the joy, I remember the pain, / And I’m loving and living life over again. / I think of the years, all too few, gone too fast. / And accept the stark fact that nothing can last. / So open your eyes, nurses, open and see, / Not a crabbit old woman, look closer— / See Me.’And here is the nurse’s reply to this poem:”What do you see?”, you ask, “What do we see?” / Yes, we are thinking when looking at thee! / We may seem to be hard when we hurry and fuss, / But there’s many of you, and too few of us.We would like far more time to sit by you and talk, / To bathe you and feed you and help you to walk. / To hear of your lives and the things you have done; / Your childhood, your husband, your daughter, your son. / But time is against us, there’s too much to do— / Patients too many, and nurses too few. / We grieve when we see you so sad and alone, / With nobody near you, no friends of your own.We feel all your pain, and know of your fear / That nobody cares now your end is near. / But nurses are people with feelings as well, / And when we’re together you’ll often hear tell / Of the dearest old Gran in the very end bed, / And the lovely old Dad, and the things that he said, / We speak with compassion and love, and feel sad / When we think of your lives and the joy that you’ve had, / When the time has arrived for you to depart, / You leave us behind with an ache in our heart.When you sleep the long sleep, no more worry or care, / There are other old people, and we must be there. / So please understand if we hurry and fuss— / There are many of you, / And so few of us.’This poignant prose helps bring home the daily reality of many older people in our society. According to an Age Cymru survey undertaken in 2014, as many as 75,000 over-65s living in Wales say they are lonely. Nearly two thirds of women have reported being concerned about loneliness in old age. The WRVS found that 75 per cent of those older than 75 who lived alone felt lonely. They also found that older men in Wales were the loneliest in the UK.Research shows that loneliness and social isolation are as damaging to our health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Loneliness increases the chances of an early death by around 45 per cent. Loneliness is associated with an increased risk of developing coronary heart disease and stroke. Loneliness increases the risk of high blood pressure. Lonely individuals are also at higher risk of the onset of disability. One study concludes that lonely people have a 64 per cent increased chance of developing clinical dementia.So, what can we do to combat this hidden and silent killer? The older people’s commissioner has called for the Public Health (Wales) Bill to place a duty on public services boards to tackle loneliness and isolation as part of their well-being campaign—calls that I wholeheartedly support. Age Cymru operate age well centres in north Wales in an effort to integrate older people into their local communities and prevent them feeling isolated. The Men’s Sheds movement has established centres in Wales. The movement, which started in Australia, is a new way for men to pursue their interests, develop new ones, belong to a unique group, feel useful, fulfilled, and have a sense of belonging. But I want to focus on a Welsh group that was established to tackle loneliness and isolation in west Wales—the welcome visitor at home project. Welcome visitors all have great listening skills and appropriate professional training. The visitors all display professionalism, are empathic and deal with the older people they work with with a great deal of sincerity, integrity and respect. These volunteers really get to know the older people they visit. They visit each person over the course of 10 face-to-face visits and utilise low-key reminiscence to look at their life story in a way that helps them to gain insight from their life experiences and to feel good about themselves. The Alzheimer’s Society recommended the use of reminiscence because of the positive effects it has on mental health. According to research, reminiscence therapy is an effective nursing intervention to enhance self-esteem, reduce social isolation and depression, and provide comfort in the elderly population.Following on from the face-to-face visits, the welcome visitor at home visitors maintain telephone contact with the older person for around six months. The visitors tell me that, by the time they swap from face-to-face visits to phoning for a chat, they feel that they have established a bond with the older person.The welcome visitor at home scheme was funded via a charitable grant to provide the service to lonely and isolated people in Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire. Their funding runs until September but they are now looking to offer the service to the whole of Wales. The funding from the Sobell Foundation provided for a project co-ordinator and a small team of visitors who have, so far, helped around 120 people.I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will agree with me that the welcome visitor at home project is an excellent service that could save millions of pounds by reducing avoidable hospital admissions and dependency on the care sector. The communities in Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire have greatly benefited from this project, and I hope that the Welsh Government can work with the group to ensure that older people across Wales benefit from this valuable service. Diolch yn fawr.

Joyce Watson AC: I want to also pay some tribute to Pembrokeshire Disabled Bowlers Club. They actually run a scheme for all disabled people, whatever your disability. I spent some time there, in Milford Haven leisure centre, with them last Monday. What was absolutely clear about it was that people who had previously been absolutely isolated were now coming together as a collective group. I want to pay tribute here to Stephen and his wife, Olwen Whitmore, who run that club and have done for four years to make sure that those people, whatever their disability, actually have an opportunity to group together—and these are the words of the people I spoke to—to feel human again, to feel part of society again, and it has improved their mental health, but also their physical health as well. And I just want to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, to recognise those volunteers, who sometimes are lonely or would be lonely, themselves, in helping to reduce loneliness, isolation and all that goes with that.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I’d like to pay tribute to the Member—Caroline, Assembly Member—for bringing this here today. The effects upon someone’s mental well-being as a result of loneliness and isolation can be devastating. The older people’s commissioner has identified isolation amongst older people as a key public health issue. Seventy-five thousand older people in Wales feel lonely, with almost half of those saying their television or a pet was their main, and sometimes often only companion. Yet it is not always older people. Loneliness and social isolation can affect anyone of any age, and it is essential that we don’t forget the impact that this can have on a person’s physical and mental well-being: despair, depression, introversion, confusion, even malnutrition and dehydration, as quite often motivation to carry on living is often impaired. Today, I would like to call on the Minister in the Welsh Government to ensure that we do have some practical solutions. Day centres can break the monotony of living alone and allow for social engagement, but, quite often, people cannot access them, so I would like to see more support given for our community transport infrastructure. The funding is required for that so that people can actually access these facilities. We need a joined-up approach. I would like to pay tribute to Esther Rantzen, actually, who, four years ago, provided a telephone service that you can phone, and it’s called the Silver Line. Pensioners can chat, for advice or support, or to report abuse. It’s an 0800 number, it’s freely available, and I really think we as politicians should be encouraging our constituents to perhaps engage more. All I know is that working with Welsh Government, we as Assembly Members, but working with these individuals who really—. As, Caroline, you indicated earlier, there but for the grace of God go us and, maybe, in years to come, there will we go.

Mike Hedges AC: I also wish to thank Caroline Jones for giving me a minute in this debate. I’ve spoken on loneliness in this Chamber several times, and it’s an issue that really does concern me. I intend just to give two examples of loneliness: first the woman who visited me in surgery three times. I asked her after her third visit what she wanted me to do to help her. She replied, ‘I come and see you, because you and the checkout assistant at Somerfield are my only two friends—the only people I speak to.’ The second is someone who visited me in another surgery and used to work in the media. Her husband had died and she had moved to a new estate, and she was the only person at home all day—good for taking in deliveries, but it meant she saw no-one all day. Remember, we can all end up being lonely.

Thank you very much. And I call on the Minister for Social Services and Public Health, Rebecca Evans, to reply to the debate.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you very much to Caroline Jones for tabling this debate today and to all of the speakers for giving us the opportunity to explore how we can tackle the issue of loneliness and isolation in our Welsh communities, and I wholeheartedly agree that this is an issue that can only be properly addressed if we do work in partnership. Loneliness and isolation can have a significant impact on both physical and mental health and well-being, and that’s why ‘Taking Wales Forward’ sets out a specific commitment to develop a cross-Government strategy to deal with loneliness and isolation. We recognise the need to work together across Government and we also recognise the need to work with the public and our external partners. This is an approach that we’ve already used successfully in a number of areas, including the work we have taken forward through the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. The approach is about what Welsh Government can do, what statutory bodies and the third sector and independent sector can do, but also, importantly, it’s about what people and what local communities can do. As highlighted by Jane Hutt in the previous debate that we had on this subject recently, our communities have had a long tradition of being places where people do their best to help each other. However, as society changes and families become more dispersed, more people are experiencing loneliness and isolation, and I think that the examples given by Mike Hedges really brought that home to us this evening. We’re already taking action to tackle loneliness and isolation in Wales through a range of programmes and initiatives. Whilst this is primarily focused on older people, we do recognise that loneliness and isolation isn’t just an issue facing older people, and I’m grateful to Janet Finch-Saunders for reminding us of that fact as well. In terms of some of the work that’s been put in place, it includes a three-year programme of volunteer-led community networks, referred to as Compassionate Communities, and we also know about the importance of befriending. We’ve provided a range of funding to support this agenda, and this includes support for the Ageing Well in Wales programme, which has a specific work stream looking at loneliness and isolation. We provide also funding to a number of third sector organisations to tackle loneliness and isolation in our communities. For example, Diverse Cymru are undertaking a campaign with support from other organisations to help combat social isolation in BME and LGBT communities. Sight Cymru are working on a project to deliver bilingual expert patient-led support programmes, designed to combat the social isolation that can often come from losing your sight. Gofal’s Journeys programme aims to enhance and expand the current model of peer support groups who provide people with mental health problems the opportunity to share experiences, build self-esteem and confidence and reduce social isolation. And we’ve also funded Mind Cymru’s My Generation to improve the resilience and well-being of older people at risk of developing mental ill-health as a result of isolation. I recently attended the launch of Ffrind i Mi—Friend of Mine—in Newport. That scheme aims to recruit as many volunteers from local communities as possible to provide support to others, and in doing so it aims to match volunteers to people with similar interests and backgrounds, such as veterans supporting veterans, for example. And I do believe that real friendships will develop through this model, which will benefit both the individual and the volunteer. This is a really good example of what people can do locally, and it fits in well with our model of developing compassionate communities. I was very interested to hear about the Welcome Visitor home project—that’s not one that I was familiar with before—in west Wales and the Pembrokeshire Disabled Bowlers Club too. Thanks to Janet Finch-Saunders again for highlighting the importance service that the Silver Line can offer. I think that this debate does provide us with a really good opportunity to recognise and thank all of the volunteers who are willing to spare some of their time to support other people, including Joyce Watson’s constituent, Stephen. Whilst there are many examples of other similar schemes, we know that there is more to do and we don’t underestimate the seriousness of loneliness and isolation, and the impact on people’s mental health and well-being. Some of those figures that Caroline Jones spoke of very starkly at the start of this debate in terms of demonstrating the impact on health, I think, were really quite something as well. Since the previous debate on loneliness and isolation that took place last month, the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee has published information on the inquiry that they will be undertaking. They will consider: the evidence of the causes and the scale of the problem; the impact on older people and whether it disproportionately affects certain groups, such as people with dementia; the impact on public services, particularly the impact on health and social care; and evidence of what works and what interventions can really help, and current policy solutions and their cost-effectiveness. So, I’m really looking forward to the outcome of this inquiry, and we will ensure that it’s considered as part of the way in which we develop our strategy across Government to address loneliness and isolation. So, to conclude, I’d like to reassure Members that we are committed as a Government to doing all we can to address the issue of loneliness and isolation. Whilst this is a particular issue for older people, and while we will continue to focus on this group, we’ll also take the opportunity to ensure that other groups of people who experience loneliness and isolation are also supported. We all have a role to play and we will need to work in partnership if we’re to provide support to friends, family members, neighbours and colleagues who may be experiencing loneliness or isolation.

Thank you very much. That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 19:04.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government

Steffan Lewis: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that any collaboration between local authorities is accountable to local people?

Mark Drakeford: Proposals in the White Paper ‘Reforming Local Government: Resilient and Renewed’ put elected members at the heart of collaborative decision making. Elected members are then directly accountable to local people through the ballot box.

John Griffiths: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government's priorities for public sector procurement in Wales, in the context of leaving the EU?

Mark Drakeford: As the United Kingdom leaves the EU we will further align public sector procurement to priorities of job creation, simplification, community benefits and value for money for the public pound in Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the location of the Welsh Revenue Authority?

Mark Drakeford: The headquarters of the Welsh Revenue Authority will be at Treforest. The WRA will also have a presence in both Aberystwyth and Llandudno, to ensure staff have direct contact with stakeholders, taxpayers and their agents.

Russell George: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the complaints handling processes of local authorities in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The majority of local authorities in Wales have adopted the model concerns and complaints policy for public services providers in Wales. The model was introduced in 2011 and was endorsed by Welsh Ministers. Local authorities nevertheless remain responsible for their own complaints handling process.

David J. Rowlands: What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made to ensure that his latest blueprint for change to local governance is fit for purpose?

Mark Drakeford: I am currently consulting on proposals for reform as set out in the ‘Reforming Local Government’ White Paper. These proposals were developed with local government to ensure they are fit for our shared purpose of resilient and renewed local government that is able to deliver better outcomes for the people of Wales.

David Melding: What is the Welsh Government doing to help local government adopt new digital technologies to aid citizen participation?

Mark Drakeford: The local government White Paper emphasises the importance of citizens being active partners in the delivery of services and of local authorities using a range of methods, including digital tools, to enable participation. This includes proposals around electronic voting as part of wider efforts to modernise elections.

Adam Price: What plans does the Cabinet Secretary have to commission a study of unregistered land as part of the Welsh Government's assessment of the scope for land value taxation?

Mark Drakeford: I intend to explore, in an applied and practical way, whether changes to local taxation in Wales could make our systems fairer. The options include land value tax. It will be important to assess what information would be needed to operate any new tax effectively.